* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [CALL TO ORDER] [00:00:04] I NOW DECLARE THAT THE P PLANO CITY COUNCIL IS RECONVENING AN OPEN SESSION THAT ALL MEMBERS ARE PRESENT. WE'LL BEGIN TONIGHT'S REGULAR MEETING WITH THE INVOCATION LED BY REVEREND DAY YOUNG PASTOR OF THE WEST PLANO PRESBYTERIAN AND THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE IN TEXAS PLEDGE LED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT POST 9 1 1. WOULD YOU ALL PLEASE STAND? I INVITE YOU TO PRAY FROM YOUR FAITH TRADITION, FROM WHEREVER FAITH TRADITION YOU COME FROM. AND, UH, SO LET US PRAY TOGETHER. GOD OF JUSTICE AND MERCY, THANK YOU FOR THE GIFT OF LIFE AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE THE PEOPLE OF OUR CITY. HELP US TO ACT WITH CHARACTER AND CONVICTION AND HELP US TO LISTEN WITH UNDERSTANDING AND GOODWILL. GIVE US A SPIRIT OF SERVICE. AS WE CONVENE OUR MEETING, MAY WE BE MINDFUL, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED IN OUR COMMUNITY. WE ASK FOR YOUR BLESSING. AND WE THANK YOU FOR ALL THOSE AROUND THIS TABLE FOR THEIR GIFTS AND TALENTS AS THEY SERVE THIS COMMUNITY. AMEN. AMERICA AND ONE NATION UNDER GOD INVISIBLE LIBERTY PLEDGE ONE STATE, ONE INVISIBLE. BE SEATED. THANKS GUYS. APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU GUYS FOR DOING THIS. TAKE A PICTURE. WELL, GOOD EVENING EVERYBODY. WE HAVE, [PROCLAMATIONS AND SPECIAL RECOGNITIONS] UH, A COUPLE OF PROCLAMATIONS. THE MONTH OF APRIL 18TH THROUGH THE 24TH IS NATIONAL CRIME. VICTOR'S VICTIM'S RIGHTS WEEK. UH, THE PLANO POLICE DEPARTMENT AND PLANO VICTIM SERVICES PROGRAM HELP VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIMES. SO I'D LIKE TO CALL FORWARD GAY LACO SENIOR POLICE, UH, LEGAL ADVISOR. AND CHRISTIE HOFF, POWER SENIOR VICTIM ADVOCATE. HI. SO I'LL, UH, I'D LIKE TO READ THE PROCLAMATION FOR THIS WEEK, WHEREAS THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS ENACTED THE VICTIMS OF CRIME ACT IN 1984 AND SOON AFTER THE TEXAS LEGISLATURE PASSED A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT GUARANTEEING VICTIMS THE RIGHT TO MEANINGFULLY PARTICIPATE IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROCESS. WHEREAS THE PLANO POLICE DEPARTMENT'S VICTIM SERVICES PROGRAM PROVIDES SERVICES FREE OF CHARGE TO HELP REDUCE THE SHORT AND LONG-TERM EFFECTS DUE TO VIOLENT CRIMES FOR THOSE DISTRESSED AND IS DEDICATED TO STRENGTHENING VICTIMS AND THOSE WHO SURVIVE IN THE AFTERMATH OF CRIME. THESE SERVICES OFFER A PATH TO A BETTER FUTURE FOR THOSE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES OF OTHERS. NOW, THEREFORE, I JOHN B MUNNS MAYOR OF THE CITY OF PLANO, TEXAS DUE HEREBY PROCLAIM APRIL 23RD TO THE 29TH. 2023 IS NATIONAL CRIME VICTIM'S RIGHTS WEEK IN PLANO. I DO THEREBY ENCOURAGE ALL CITIZENS TO JOIN ME AND THE PLANO CITY COUNCIL IN THANKING THE PLANO POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE PLANO VICTIM SERVICES PROGRAM, AND ALL THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSIONALS WHO WORK WITH [00:05:01] PASSION AND RESOLVE TO SAFEGUARD VICTIMS OF CRIME IN OUR COMMUNITY. THANK YOU SO MUCH. GO AHEAD. UM, THANK YOU FOR COMING THIS EVENING. NATIONAL CRIME VICTIMS RIGHTS WEEK IS A WEEK TO JUST HONOR THE PEOPLE WHO'VE HAD THEIR LIVES ALTERED AND FOR, UM, AS BEING A VICTIM OF A CRIME. AND SO WE WANT TO SHOW THEM SUPPORT THAT THEY CAN COME FORWARD AND BE BELIEVED AND SUPPORTED. UM, MANY WILL NEED ONGOING RESOURCES. SO THE PLANO POLICE DEPARTMENT VICTIM SERVICES UNIT EXISTS TO PROVIDE COMPREHENSIVE AND COMPASSIONATE SERVICES TO HELP REDUCE THE SHORT-TERM AND THE LONG-TERM TRAUMA THAT SOMEONE EXPERIENCES AS A RESULT OF THEIR VICTIMIZATION. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. LET'S GIVE 'EM A HAND ONE MORE TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. OUR NEXT PROCLAMATION IS MAY IS BUILDING SAFETY MONTH. I'D LIKE TO CALL FORWARD CELSO MATA, WHO IS OUR CHIEF BUILDING OFFICIAL. OUR CONTINUING EFFORTS TO ADDRESS CRITICAL SAFETY ISSUES IN CONSTRUCTION THAT AFFECT OUR CITIZENS IN EVERYDAY LIFE AND NATIONAL DISASTERS ASSURES US THAT OUR STRUCTURES ARE SAFE AND SOUND WELCOME CELSO BUILDING SAFETY MONTH. WHEREAS THE CITY OF PLANO IS COMMITTED TO RECOGNIZING THAT OUR GROWTH AND STRENGTH DEPENDS ON THE SAFETY AND ESSENTIAL ROLE OF HOMES, BUILDINGS, AND INFRASTRUCTURE PLAY BOTH IN EVERYDAY LIFE AND WHEN DISASTERS STRIKE. WHEREAS MODERN BUILDING CODES INCLUDE SAFEGUARDS TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC FROM HAZARDS SUCH AS HURRICANES, SNOWSTORMS, TORNADOES, WILDLAND FIRES, FLOODS, AND EARTHQUAKES. AND WHEREAS EACH YEAR IN OBSERVANCE OF BUILDING SAFETY MONTH, THE CITY OF PLANO IS ASKED TO CONSIDER THE COMMITMENT TO IMPROVE BUILDING SAFETY, RESILIENCE, AND ECONOMIC INVESTMENT AT HOME AND IN THE COMMUNITY, AND TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE ESSENTIAL SERVICES PROVIDED TO ALL OF US BY LOCAL BUILDING AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS IN PROTECTING LIVES AND PROPERTY. NOW, THEREFORE, I JOHN B MUNZ MAYOR OF THE CITY OF PLANO DO HEREBY PROCLAIM MAY, 2023 AS BUILDING SAFETY MONTH IN THE CITY OF PLANO, TEXAS. AND I DO THEREBY ENCOURAGE ALL CITIZENS TO JOIN ME AND THE PLANO CITY COUNCIL IN COMMENDING OUR DEDICATED STAFF AND THEIR VIGILANT EFFORTS TO UPHOLD BUILDING CODES TO ENSURE PLANO REMAINS A CITY OF EXCELLENCE. CONGRATULATIONS. THANK YOU. OH, LEMME SEE HERE. WELL, BUILDING SAFETY MONTH IS A NATIONAL CAMPAIGN THAT TAKES PLACE IN MAY. SO WE'RE A LITTLE BIT AHEAD OF THE GAME TO RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT BUILDING SAFETY. THE CAMPAIGN REINFORCES THE NEED FOR ADOPTION OF UP TO DATE BUILDING CODES TO HELP US BUILD SAFE, SUSTAINABLE STRUCTURES FOR HOMES AND BUSINESSES. AND SO WE THANK YOU MAYOR FOR THIS PROCLAMATION AND COUNCIL AND THE SUPPORT FOR BUILDING SAFETY MONTH. THANK YOU. APPRECIATE ALL YOUR WORK. THANK YOU. NOW IT'S [OATHS OF OFFICE] MY PLEASURE TO FINALLY GIVE THE OATH OF OFFICE TO A COM, A POTENTIAL FUTURE COMMISSIONER WITHIN THE NEXT 30 SECONDS. SO I'D LIKE TO INVITE BILL LYLE DOWN. YAY. BILL, WELCOME, FINALLY. OKAY. THANK YOU, SIR. I'M GONNA READ THE OATH OF OFFICE. DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR OR AFFIRM THAT YOU WILL FAITHFULLY EXECUTE THE DUTIES OF THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF PLANO, STATE OF TEXAS, AND WILL TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, PRESERVE, PROTECT, AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES AND OF THE STATE AND THE CHARTER OF THE ORDINANCES OF THIS CITY? AND YOU THERE FURTHERMORE, SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT YOU HAVE NOT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY PAID, OFFERED OR PROMISED TO PAY, CONTRIBUTED NOR PRO PROMISED TO CONTRIBUTE ANY MONEY OR VALUABLE THING OR PROMISED ANY PUBLIC OFFICE OR EMPLOYMENT AS A REWARD TO SECURE YOUR APPOINTMENT. SO HELP YOU GOD. I DO. GOOD. [00:10:01] THAT WAS LONG, BUT IT WAS GOOD. CONGRATULATIONS. THANK YOU. AND FINALLY, FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SERVED US SO WELL, WE WOULD LIKE TO SAY THANK YOU. SO I'D LIKE TO CALL UP AN ANDRE GI. I'M GOING TO DO MY BEST ANDRE LA LAP SO FAR AWAY. AND AMIT, WACO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR, FOR YOUR SERVICE. WE APPRECIATE IT SO MUCH. AMIT, HERE, HERE'S YOURS. THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE APPRECIATE THE WORK YOU'VE DONE FOR US AND, AND, UH, THE GRATITUDE IS, IS A SMALL APPRECIATION, BUT WE THANK YOU SO MUCH. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. COMMENTS OF PUBLIC [COMMENTS OF PUBLIC INTEREST] INTEREST, COMMENTS OF PUBLIC INTEREST. THIS PORTION OF THE MEETING IS TO ALLOWED TO THREE MINUTES PER SPEAKER WITH 30 TOTAL MINUTES ON ITEMS OF INTEREST OR CONCERN AND NOT ON ITEMS THAT ARE ON THE CURRENT AGENDA. THE COUNCIL MAY NOT DISCUSS THESE ITEMS, BUT MAY RESPOND WITH FACTUAL OR POLICY INFORMATION. THE COUNCIL MAY CHOOSE TO PLACE THE ITEM ON A FUTURE AGENDA. WE DO HAVE A FEW SPEAKERS THIS EVENING. THE FIRST ONE IS SHARON. OVERALL NUISANCE OR DANGEROUS? DOES IT MATTER? NO ONE HAS THE RIGHTS TO PUT CHEMICALS INTO MY BODY OR ONTO MY PROPERTY. PERIOD. SMOKER'S RIGHTS THAT IS BS THE RIGHT OF THE PERSON TO NOT HAVE TO PUT UP WITH ANOTHER PERSON'S BAD HABITS IS ALL THAT MATTERS. THE ARGUMENT THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SMOKING OVER A HUNDRED YEARS IS NOT A GOOD ARGUMENT. THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY ARE SMOKING ON PRIVATE PROPERTY DOESN'T MATTER. THE SECOND THE SECONDHAND CIGARETTE SMOKE LEAVES THE PRIVATE PROPERTY. WHEN WE LIVED IN AN EARLY 1930S FARMHOUSE, WE WERE EXPOSED TO A LOT OF CIGARETTE SMOKE. NO BEDROOM DOORS WERE SHUT BECAUSE WE WERE ONLY TWO WINDOW UNITS. THE PHARMACIST USED TO SELL MY MOTHER VCE AND CAVE WITHOUT A PRESCRIPTION ALL THE TIME BECAUSE OF THE FOUR OF HIS CHILDREN WERE ALWAYS GETTING BRONCHIAL INFECTIONS OR COLDS. IT WASN'T AS BAD WHEN WE MOVED TO A DIFFERENT HOUSE WHERE WE COULD SHUT UP BEDROOM DOORS. AND OUR GAME WAS FAR FROM THE DEN. AS A CHILD, AT ABOUT AGE SEVEN, EIGHT, I REMEMBER DREAMING OF A DAY WHEN I DID NOT HAVE TO PUT UP WITH CIGARETTE SMOKE. THIS WAS SHORTLY AFTER I NEARLY DIED FROM SECONDHAND CIGARETTE SMOKE. I WAS LAID UP IN BED FOR TWO WEEKS WITH BRONCO PNEUMONIA. I TRIED TO TELL MY FATHER THAT HE HAD CAUSED THE ILLNESS, BUT HE SAID IT WAS IN MY HEAD. I WANTED TO MARRY A POLITICIAN WHO WOULD MAKE LAWS TO, TO END EXPOSURE TO SECONDHAND SMOKE. I LATER REALIZED I DIDN'T WANNA MARRY A POLITICIAN, BUT I STILL WANT LAWS TO END THIS. I KNEW THEN, AND I KNOW NOW THAT THE SMOKER RIGHTS ENDS THE MOMENT THAT THOSE TOXIC CHEMICALS CAUSE HARM. I AM SCARED TO DEATH THAT ONE OF MY CLOSE NEIGHBORS WILL MOVE AND A SMOKER WILL MOVE IN NEXT DOOR. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LIVE IN FEAR. IT IS BAD ENOUGH IF I WALK LATER IN THE MORNING AND I'M ASSAULTED WITH CIGARETTE SMOKE FROM A PERSON SMOKING IN HIS BACKYARD. I NEVER SEE HIM SINCE HE IS IN HIS BACKYARD. BY NOW I'M ASSAULTED WITH HIS CIGARETTE SMOKE AND HAVE TO COVER MY MOUTH AND NOSE TILL I'M OUT OF HIS RANGE. HE CAN GO INSIDE AND SMOKE AND LEAVE HIS NE NEIGHBORS IN PEACE. YOUR JOB IS TO PASS LAWS WHERE YOUR CITIZENS ARE PROTECTED FROM UNNECESSARY CHEMICALS AND THREATS, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT IT IS A DANGER OR A NUISANCE. THE NON-SMOKER HAS THE RIGHT TO CLEAN AIR. THE SMOKER IS THE PERPETRATOR OF THE NUISANCE AND IT'S DANGEROUS. NAME ONE OTHER CARCINOGENIC CHEMICAL YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH PUTTING INTO THE BODY OF ANOTHER PERSON WITHOUT GOING TO JAIL. BAN SMOKING ON ALL CITY OWNED PROPERTY, PASS A NUISANCE LAW THAT CIGARETTES SMOKE ON PRIVATE [00:15:01] PROPERTY CANNOT ENTER ADJACENT PROPERTY. THANK YOU. THE NEXT SPEAKER IS STEVEN GRIFF. MY NAME IS STEVE RIFFING. I'M A RESIDENT OF PLANO AND, UH, LIVING IN THE, UH, AREA AROUND CUSTER AND, UH, LEGACY. AND I JUST WANTED TO, I'M, I'M GONNA BE VOTING SOON HERE, AND I WANNA MAKE AN INFORMED VOTE FOR THIS ELECTION AND SUBSEQUENT ELECTIONS AND SOMETHING THAT'S CONCERNED US IN THAT AREA, YOU MIGHT THINK IS OUR DEVELOPMENT THERE AT, UH, YOU KNOW, CALLED UH, WHAT LEGACY SQUARE AT CUSTER AND LEGACY. UH, WE CALL IT STAG 13, BUT THAT MIGHT BE, UH, ACTUALLY A LITTLE BIT UNFAIR FOR ARMY BARRACKS. I, I'VE, I'VE, I'VE NEVER SEEN, I'VE, I'VE SEEN MILITARY BARRACKS THAT HAVE MORE STYLE THAN WHAT WAS BUILT THERE, BUT, UH, I WANTED TO JUST, I WANTED TO KIND OF WANTED TO JUST FIND OUT, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME WE DRIVE BY THERE, AND IT'S NOT US, IT'S EVERY DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS THAT I'VE TALKED TO IN THAT AREA. THEY, THEY JUST, WE LOOK WITH DISBELIEF. HOW COULD SOMETHING SO BANAL, SO, UH, BEREFT OF ANY KIND OF CREATIVITIES WHOSE FOURTH GREAT-GRANDDAUGHTER DESIGNED THIS THING, DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD DROP A WHITEWASHED PLYWOOD BOX IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY OF, OF EXCELLENCE. IT'S NOT EXCELLENT. IT, IT'S, IT'S, UH, IT'S UGLY. AND SO I, I'M ADDRESSING THE VILIFICATION OF PLANO. IT'S NOT THE DEVELOPMENT OF PLANO THAT I OBJECT TO. I, I REALIZE AS A CITY BUILDS OUT, IT HAS TO BUILD UP AND, AND, AND YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT. BUT THE DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO UGLY? AND SO I THOUGHT, WELL, MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING. SO I DECIDED TO TAKE THESE PICTURES AND I, YOU KNOW, I'M JUST TO MAKE IT SIMPLE SO YOU COULD SEE THE STRUCTURE. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE SEEN, IS THAT OKAY TO ASK? HOW MANY HAVE SEEN THIS, UH, STRUCTURE IN, IN, UH, AND UH, AND THEN IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD. IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, LITERALLY THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF NEIGHBORHOOD RESIDENCE HALL AREAS IN, IN PLANO. IT'S VERY, VERY TYPICAL. AND UH, YOU KNOW, I SEE PEOPLE DRIVE THROUGH PLANO. THEY SAY THIS BEAUTIFUL BRICK STRUCTURES OF ALL KINDS AND THEY LOVE THE, THE, UH, UH, VARIED INSETS AND, UH, WHAT WOULD WE CALL THAT? THE, THE, UH, UH, THE, THE SETBACK FROM THE WATCH. YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT LITTLE RECESSED COVES AND STUFF AND LITTLE TOURISTS STICKING OUT ALL THE THINGS THAT MAKE PLANO PROPERTY LOOK NICE, WHETHER IT BE RESIDENTIAL OR BUSINESS, WHATEVER. BUT I LOOK AT THIS MONSTROSITY AND WE JUST LOOK AT EACH OTHER AND DISBELIEVE IN HOW IN THE WORLD COULD SOMETHING LIKE THIS BE BEGIN? WELL, I GOT A VOTE HERE AND I JUST THOUGHT, IS IT OKAY IF I, IT MUST HAVE HAD VIGOROUS SUPPORT AMONG THE MEMBERS OF THIS COW. I DON'T THINK YOU CAN BUILD SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITHOUT THE APPROVAL. AM I CORRECT? PLEASE? PERHAPS THERE'S SOMEBODY WHO CAN HELP ME. YOU, YOU HAVE TO. CAN YOU, THERE WAS NO, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT, I KNOW THERE WAS A ZONING DISPUTE, SO I'M NOT TALKING THE ZONING I UNDERSTAND THAT. I'M TALKING ABOUT JUST CUZ IT'S ZONE MULTI-FAMILY. DO WE HAVE TO, UH, PUT STAG 13 IN THERE? I'M SORRY. UH, THANK YOU. I'VE, I CAN'T COUNT HOW MANY CITIZENS SHARE YOUR CONCERNS, UH, WITH THIS AND COUNCIL MEMBERS, UH, WITH THIS PROJECT. UH, RESPOND. I'M SORRY. NO, NO, JUST KEEP GOING, PLEASE. WITH THIS, UH, WITH THIS PROJECT MM-HMM. , UM, IT WAS BUILT ACCORDING TO PREEXISTING ZONING AND AS SUCH, IT NEVER HAD TO COME BEFORE COUNCIL FOR APPROVAL. WOW. THE, UH, THE BUILDERS DEVELOPED IT ACCORDING TO EVERYTHING THAT WAS ALLOWED UNDER PREEXISTING ZONING. THE ONLY THING THEY HAD TO DO WAS GET A PLAT APPROVED, WHICH WAS AN ADMINISTERIAL FUNCTION, NOT SUBJECT TO, UM, SO THE APPEARANCE OF A STRUCTURE YOU COULD PUT, AS LONG AS IT COMPLIES, I REALIZE IT WAS ZONED, UH, A MULTI-FAMILY. THAT SORT OF THING DID NOT REQUIRE COUNCIL UNDERSTAND WE CAN'T DISCUSS IT UNDER, UNDER, IT'S NOT A AGENDA. OKAY. RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT. SO THIS IS, I APPRECIATE YOUR, YOUR RESPONSE, BUT, UH, OKAY. IT, IT, IT WAS APPROVED LAW BEFORE THIS COUNCIL, THE, THE ACTUAL AESTHETICS OF THE BUILDING. BUT SIR, THERE'S A STATE LAW THAT RESTRICTS OUR ABILITY TO REGULATE THE AESTHETICS THAT PASSED, I THINK IN, UM, IT WAS IN 2019. [00:20:01] YEAH. SO THE STATE HAS PREEMPTED OUR ABILITY IN MANY WAYS, AND WE CAN GET YOU SOME MORE INFORMATION. OKAY. IF YOU HAVE HIS EMAIL ON THAT BILL, BILL, I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT. SHOULD I GIVE YOU A CALL OR, YEAH, WE'LL, WE'LL EMAIL. OKAY. WE'LL GET YOUR, WE GET YOUR BACK CONTACT INFORMATION SO YOU CAN, IF AS LONG AS IT COMPLIES WITH THE BASIC ZONING. AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ZONING HERE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HOW UGLY MM-HMM. THAT YOU CAN, YOU CAN COMPLY WITH THE ZONING LAW AND PUT SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL. YOU DON'T HAVE TO. THAT'S MY TIME IS UP THIS. SO, BUT SIR, THE STATE LAW RESTRICTED CITIES A FEW YEARS AGO FROM, AND IT SAYS YOU CAN PUT SOMETHING AS UGLY AS YOU WANT ANY YES. BASICALLY PUT MEET MINIMUM CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS. WELL, I KNOW THERE ARE A COUPLE OF CANDIDATES FOR THE, THE ASSEMBLY THAT WANNA CHANGE THAT TOO, I THINK. THINK WE'LL, WE'LL, WE'LL SEND YOU THE INFORMATION. OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU. THE NEXT SPEAKER IS PEYTON JACKSON. OKAY. GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNSEL. BETSY LUCY ANCA. BETSY LUCY ANACA. BETSY LUCY ANACA. THE REASON WHY YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THOSE AMAZING WOMEN ARE IS DUE SOLELY TO WHITE SUPREMACY. SAME. AND WITH THE MAJORITY OF DEATHS BEING PREVENTATIVE, I WOULD SAY WE ARE THE FOUNDATION OF A MASTERED INDUSTRY THAT IS STILL KILLING US TODAY. OBS AND NURSES REPLACED MIDWIVES LIKE BIG PHARMA REPLACED HOLISTIC HEALING. AND IF YOU THINK THE OPIOID CRISIS IS BAD, IMAGINE NOT QUALIFYING FOR THE CHILL PILL SIMPLY DUE TO THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN. THE PROBLEM IS, Y'ALL DON'T THINK THAT BLACK WOMEN FEEL PAIN BECAUSE WHEN YOU SWING, WE GET BACK UP. BUT ANGRY BLACK WOMAN, THE SECOND WE SWING BACK, I PROMISE YOU I'M NOT MAD, BUT I HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE, AND I NEED ALL OF MY ANTI-ABORTION PEOPLE TO STAND UP BECAUSE THE EXPERIMENTS, THE MODULES THAT MR. SIMS PRACTICE WEREN'T JUST ON THE BODIES OF MY SISTERS. YOU SEE, AFTER HE TREATED THE MOTHERS OF HEALTHCARE, THE MOTHERS OF MODERN GYNECOLOGY LIKE GUINEA PIGS, HE TOOK A STICK AND JABBED IT INTO THE HEAD HEADS OF NEWBORN BABIES. PLEASE DON'T IGNORE THAT. LIKE YOU IGNORE THE MORTALITY RATE, IT HURTS LIKE HELL BEING BLACK IN AMERICA. SO EVERY TIME I GO TO THE DOCTOR AND THEY TELL ME MY PAIN IS NORMAL, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, LIKE THE GREAT GEORGE WALLACE ONCE SAID, REPARATIONS NOW REPARATIONS TOMORROW AND REPARATIONS FOREVER. THANK YOU COUNSEL. THE NEXT SPEAKER, THE NEXT SPEAKER IS BILL FRANCE, MAYOR BONDS AND MEMBERS OF CITY COUNCIL. GOOD EVENING. UH, MY NAME IS BILL FRANCE. I'M A 26 YEAR RESIDENT OF PLANO, AND I AM HERE TONIGHT TO APPLAUD YOUR EFFORTS TO MEET WITH OUR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION ON MAY 8TH TO ENACT A TEMPORARY BAN ON SHORT-TERM RENTALS THROUGHOUT OUR RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS. THIS BAN IS ESSENTIAL TO ADDRESS THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM, THE DESTRUCTION OF THE SENSE OF SAFETY, SECURITY, AND COMMUNITY THAT IS LOST WHEN LONG-TERM RESIDENTS WHO WE KNOW AND TRUST ARE REPLACED BY A REVOLVING DOOR OF STRANGERS AND TRANSIENTS. WE BELIEVE THIS IS A PRAGMATIC, NECESSARY AND LAWFUL FIRST STEP TO BRING BACK THE PEACE AND SERENITY OF OUR SUBURBAN COMMUNITIES. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR TIME AND CONTINUED COMMITMENT TO THIS URGENT AND IMPORTANT ISSUE. [00:25:07] THE LAST SPEAKER IS GREG PATILLO. GOOD EVENING MAYOR IN COUNCIL. MY NAME IS GREG PATILLO, A 29 YEAR RESIDENT OF PLANO. IN THE DISCUSSION IN BAIT REGARDING SHORT-TERM RENTALS, I'VE HEARD THE TERM FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE USED ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION. SO TONIGHT I WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT DATA BENCHMARKS AND INSIGHT THAT WILL HOPEFULLY CHANGE HOW THAT TERM IS USED IN THE FUTURE DISCUSSIONS SO THAT IT MIGHT MORE ACCURATELY REFLECT REALITY. A RECENTLY PRESENTED DATA REGARDING THE GAP BETWEEN HOTEL OCCUPANCY TAX CALCULATED BASED ON THE REVENUE REPORTED BY AIR D N A AND THE REMITTANCES REPORTED BY PLANO UNDER THE VOLUNTARY COLLECTION AGREEMENTS WITH AIRBNB AND V R B O. THAT GAP REPRESENTS AN ESTIMATED $1 MILLION OF UNCOLLECTED OCCUPANCY TAX SINCE THE AGREEMENTS WERE ASSIGNED IN 2019. VCAS OFFER NO REALISTIC OPPORTUNITY TO IMPROVE COMPLIANCE AND ALLOW HOST TO OPERATE A NON ANONYMITY. THE FACT THAT PLANO HAD NO DATA ON WHERE SHORT-TERM RENTALS WERE BEING OPERATED AND HAD TO PAY FOR DECKARD SERVICES CAN BE TRACED BACK TO THIS DECISION TO ENTER INTO THESE AGREEMENTS. ALSO, THE CITY APPEARS TO BE PLANNING TO SHOEHORN THE ADMINISTRATION AND COMPLIANCE OF SHORT-TERM RENTALS INTO EXISTING SYSTEMS AND PROCESSES. IF THAT IS INDEED THE PLAN, IT WOULD BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND UNPRODUCTIVE PATH FORWARD FOR THE CITY USING ONE FULL-TIME EQUIVALENT PER 100 LISTINGS BENCHMARK EXPERIENCED BY GRANICUS HOST COMPLIANCE CONSULTING AND SOFTWARE FIRM THAT SPECIALIZES IN SHORT TERM RENTAL COMPLIANCE AND LAST MONTH'S ACTIVE LISTINGS ON AIRBNB AND VR BRIO V R B O. THIS APPROACH WILL COST THE CITY APPROXIMATELY $300,000 ANNUALLY FOR THE ADMINISTRATION ENFORCEMENT OF REGISTRATION CODES AND TAXES, AS WELL AS HANDLING CALLS FOR SERVICE. USING THE PREVIOUSLY PROPOSED $300 REGISTRATION FEE, THE CITY WILL HAVE A MINIMUM NET OPERATING LOSS OF $75,000 ANNUALLY. MORE RISK, MORE REALISTICALLY, P PLANO WILL EXPERIENCE THE SAME LOW REGISTRATION COMPLIANCE AS OTHER CITIES, AND THE LOSS WILL BE CLOSER TO $150,000, UH, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE WITH THE NUMBER OF RENTALS. THERE ARE, UH, WAYS TO LOWER THESE COSTS, CERTAINLY. ONE OPTION IS TO DO WHAT PLANO HAS DONE WITH HOTEL OCCUPANCY TAX, WHICH REQUIRES FEW RESOURCES, BUT ENCOURAGES NON-COMPLIANCE AND FORFEITS REVENUE, ALLOWING FEWER SHORT-TERM RENTALS AND LEVERAGING TECHNOLOGIES LIKE GRANICUS HOST COMPLIANCE THAT LOWERS THE NUMBER OF FTES REQUIRED PER LISTING AND SHIFT OPERATING EXPENSES TO SOFTWARE LICENSE FEES THAT CAN BE PAID USING OCCUPANCY TAX REVENUE. FULL DISCLOSURE, I HAVE NO FINANCIAL INTEREST IN THIS SOLUTION, JUST AN INTEREST IN HOW MY TAX DOLLARS ARE SPENT. I BELIEVE, LIKE MYSELF, MOST PLANO CITIZENS WOULD SUPPORT A ONE-TIME EXPENSE OF OUR TAX DOLLARS TO DEFEND THE CITY'S LEGISLATIVE POWER TO CREATE ZONING ORDINANCES THAT PROTECT THE HEALTH, SAFETY, MORALS, AND GENERAL WELFARE OF OUR COMMUNITY. I ALSO BELIEVE, LIKE MYSELF, THEY WOULD STRONGLY OBJECT TO USING OUR TAX DOLLARS TO SUBSIDIZE THE BUSINESSES OF A HANDFUL OF INDIVIDUALS AND COMPANIES, MOST OF WHICH ARE NOT PLANO CITIZENS. SO THEY CAN MAKE ONE TO $2,000 MORE A MONTH FROM AN ACTIVITY THAN LOWERS MY PROPERTY VALUE, MAKES MY NEIGHBORHOOD LESS SAFE, HURTS PLANOS SCHOOLS AND BUSINESSES, AND INCREASES PLANOS COST OF LIVING THAT IS ALREADY 12 TO 13% HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. THEY WOULD ALSO BE FRUSTRATED TO LEARN THAT THE CITY IS FAILING TO COLLECT ALL THE OCCUPANCY TAX THAT IS OWED BECAUSE PLANOS SEATED THEIR AUTHORITY TO TAX AND AUDIT THESE BUSINESSES TO THE PLATFORMS THROUGH THAT OFFER TRANSPARENCY. HOPEFULLY, IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE THIS TERM FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE IN THE FUTURE, YOU WILL DO SORT MORE PROPERLY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS EVENING. LET'S MOVE ON TO THE CONSENT [CONSENT AGENDA] AGENDA. THE CONSENT AGENDA. THE CONSENT AGENDA WILL BE ACTED UPON IN ONE MOTION AND CONTAINS ITEMS WHICH ARE ROUTINE AND TYPICALLY NON-CONTROVERSIAL. ITEMS B MAY BE REMOVED FROM THIS AGENDA FOR INDIVIDUAL DISCUSSION BY A COUNCIL MEMBER, THE CITY MANAGER, ANY CITIZEN. THE PRESIDING OFFICER WILL ESTABLISH TIME LIMITS BASED UPON THE NUMBER OF SPEAKER REQUESTS. MOTION TO APPROVE THE CONSENT AGENDA EXCEPT FOR ITEMS C AS IN CHARLIE. SECOND, SECOND. SECOND. THANK YOU. I HAVE A MOTION A SECOND TO APPROVE THE CONSENT AGENDA WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ITEM C, PLEASE VOTE COUNCILMAN SMITH. TRY IT ONE MORE TIME. OOPS, YOU PUSHED ON YOUR SPEAKER. SORRY. ALL RIGHT. MOTION PASSES EIGHT TO ZERO ITEM [(c)  RFB No. 2023-0209-AC for a two (2) year contract with three (3) automatic one-year renewals for Living Screen Maintenance for Parks and Recreation Department to Carruthers Landscape Management, Inc., 308 Construction, LLC dba 308 Solutions Group, and The Davey Tree Expert Company in the estimated annual amount of $127,600; and authorizing the City Manager to execute all necessary documents.       ] C, ITEM C R F B NUMBER 2023 DASH TWO NINE DASH AC FOR A TWO YEAR CONTRACT WITH THREE AUTOMATIC ONE YEAR RENEWALS FOR LIVING SCREEN MAINTENANCE FOR PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT TO CORRUTHERS LANDSCAPE MANAGEMENT, INCORPORATED 3 0 8 CONSTRUCTION, LLC, [00:30:01] DOING BUSINESS AS 3 0 8 SOLUTIONS GROUP AND THE DAVY TREE EXPERT COMPANY IN THE ESTIMATED ANNUAL AMOUNT OF $127,600 AND AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EXECUTE ALL NECESSARY DOCUMENTS. RON SMITH, YOUR PARKS AND RECREATION DIRECTOR HERE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. WELL, THANK YOU. UH, THANK YOU MR. MAYOR AND THANK YOU DR. SMITH. UH, I, I, I PULLED THIS OFF OF THE CONSENT AGENDA BECAUSE, UH, I HAD ASKED SOME QUESTIONS, UH, AND, AND OBVIOUSLY, UH, PARKS AND RECREATION PROVIDED, UH, GREAT INFORMATION IN RESPONSE TO THAT ABOUT, UH, HOW WE DECIDED TO UTILIZE AN OUTSIDE CONTRACTOR FOR THIS WORK RATHER THAN DOING IT IN-HOUSE. UM, AND YOU, YOU KNOW, HOW WE DETERMINED THAT THAT WAS THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION. AND I RECEIVED BACK, UH, SOME INFORMATION, UH, UH, MIDDAY TODAY, UM, REGARDING, UH, REGARDING THIS. AND, UH, JUST SO THAT EVERYONE IS ON, ON THE SAME PAGE, UH, THE INFORMATION, WHICH I, I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS INFORMATION, UM, WAS THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, WE BEGAN, UH, INTENSIVE TRIMMING OF THE EXISTING LIVING SCREENS LAST YEAR. UM, THAT, UH, THAT EFFORT WILL CONTINUE, UH, THIS YEAR UTILIZING, UH, THE ADDITIONAL SUPPLEMENT, UH, THAT WE RECEIVED. AND ONCE THE INTENSIVE TRIMMING HAS BEEN COMPLETED, UM, THAT, UH, THE, THE STAFF RESPONSE SAID WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN AN ONGOING, UH, 90% TO 10% RATIO OF CONTRACT VERSUS, UH, IN-HOUSE. AND SOME OTHER INFORMATION. AND THANK YOU AGAIN FOR, FOR THIS HELPFUL INFORMATION WAS THAT, UH, SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT TO IMPROVE THE DEPARTMENT'S, UH, PRODUCTION AND MAINTAINING THE LIVING SCREENS WAS REQUESTED IN THE 2122 OPERATING BUDGET, BUT WAS UNFUNDED. UM, AND, UH, THEN THERE WERE SOME AMOUNTS ABOUT CONTRACTUAL FUNDING, UH, APPROVED IN, IN THE 2122 BUDGET OF, UH, 84,600, AND THEN 43,000, UM, IN, UH, IN THE 2223 BUDGET. AND, UH, THAT THE FUTURE, UH, INVENTORY OF LIVING SCREENS IS UNPREDICTABLE BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHEN HOAS WILL SURRENDER THEM TO US, BUT WE ALSO DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY'LL BE, UH, REPLACED BY, UH, YOU KNOW, UH, BRICK OR MASONRY. YEAH, SOME, SOME TYPE OF, OF, OF, OF PHYSICAL SCREENING WALL. UH, I GUESS LIVING SCREENS ARE PHYSICAL, BUT YOU KNOW, LIKE A, LIKE BUILT WITH BRICKS OR, OR STONES OR SOMETHING. AND SO, UM, ANYWAY, AND, AND THEN, UH, I HAD SENT BACK SOME, SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS, BUT THROUGH THE BACK AND FORTH, THAT ENDED UP BEING ABOUT THREE O'CLOCK TODAY. AND SO, UH, UH, THERE WAS, UH, UM, UM, NOT, UH, NOT, NOT A CHANCE FOR A RESPONSE ON THAT. SO I JUST WANTED TO, TO ASK THOSE QUESTIONS. UH, HERE, WHICH, UM, UM, WAS THAT THE FIRST WAS THAT THE RESPONSE MENTIONED, UH, UH, SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT THAT WAS, UH, REQUESTED IN THE LAST BUDGET CYCLE, BUT WAS UNFUNDED. AND I JUST WANTED TO ASK IF I'M, UH, CORRECTLY UNDERSTANDING THAT IF THAT EQUIPMENT WERE TO BE FUNDED, UH, AND, AND PERHAPS AN ADDITIONAL, UH, COUPLE OF EMPLOYEES WERE HIRED, UH, WOULD WE BE ABLE TO DO THIS WORK IN-HOUSE? THANK YOU, COUNCIL MEMBER. THE, UH, THE SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT WOULD ALLOW US TO TOP THOSE SCREEN WALLS THAT HAVE GONE UNCHECKED FOR SEVERAL YEARS. THERE WOULD BE SOME AREAS WHERE WE STILL, AS A PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT WOULD NOT GO TO BECAUSE OF THE POWER LINES AND THE OTHER, UH, OVERHEAD OBSTACLES THAT WE WOULD WANT SPECIFIC CONTRACTORS OR UTILITY CONTRACTORS TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE. BUT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE MORE THAN WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO HANDLE RIGHT NOW WITH THAT PIECE OF SPECIALTY EQUIPMENT. AND DO WE KNOW HOW MUCH THAT EQUIPMENT WOULD COST? IS IT COST EFFECTIVE TO, TO DO THAT? UH, IT'S AN EXPENSIVE PIECE. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS. WE DID SUBMIT IT LAST YEAR, SO I COULD BE ABLE TO PULL THAT QUICKLY AND GET IT TO YOU TOMORROW, BUT, UH, IT WAS A, IT WAS A BIG, YOU KNOW, SIX FIGURE TYPE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT. OKAY. AND THEN, UM, I KNOW THAT THE RATIO, UH, AS THE PACKET POINTED OUT, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR MOWING IS 70% IN-HOUSE, 30%, UH, CONTRACTOR. UM, IT LOOKS LIKE, UH, THE RATIO THAT'S ANTICIPATED HERE IS ONLY 10% IN-HOUSE, 90% CONTRACTOR, WHICH STRUCK ME AS BEING, YOU KNOW, A HEAVY CONTRACTOR UTILIZATION. AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU UTILIZE A CONTRACTOR, THERE'S A, A PROFIT MARGIN, UH, YOU KNOW, ON THEIR END. AND, AND, AND, UH, JUST WONDERING IF THAT MAY BE THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION. SO, UM, SO I WANTED TO, UM, TO SEE WHAT THE REASON FOR THAT, THAT ANTICIPATED RATIO WAS. WE STILL THINK THAT THAT IS THE BEST SOLUTION FOR OUR LIVING SCREENS. WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY FOUR MILES OF LIVING SCREENS THROUGHOUT THE CITY, 26 I THINK, OR 24 LOCATIONS WHERE WE HAVE THOSE LIVING SCREENS WHEN YOU COMPARE THAT TO OUR PARK SYSTEM, WHERE WE HAVE A LOT MORE TURF THAT WE MAINTAIN. AND SO THE RATIO FOR THOSE FEWER LIVING SCREEN LOCATIONS HIGHER ON THE CONTRACT SIDE, 90%, 10% IS, UH, THE GENERAL UPKEEP ONCE A CONTRACTOR HAS GONE IN AND DONE AN AGGRESSIVE PRUNING OF THOSE LIVING SCREENS. WHEREAS THE MOWING IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE TAKING CARE OF ON A DAILY BASIS SURE. FOR ABOUT NINE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR. SO THERE'S A DIFFERENT RATIO, AND WE THINK WHAT WE'VE GOT RIGHT NOW IS A GOOD MIX FOR THE [00:35:01] LIVING SCREENS. OKAY. AND, AND THEN JUST A, A FOLLOW UP ON THAT, I UNDERSTAND ALSO WE'RE IN A PERIOD OF INTENSIVE MAINTENANCE, UH, INTENSIVE TRIMMING RIGHT NOW, AND THAT WILL BE FOLLOWED UP WITH KIND OF LESS INTENSE ONGOING MAINTENANCE. IS THAT, IS THAT CORRECT? YEAH, OUR LONG-TERM GOAL WOULD IS WE'RE EVALUATING EVERY LOCATION THAT WE HAVE THESE LIVING SCREENS. UH, WHAT IS HAPPENING IS, UH, WE HAVE SOME LIVING SCREENS THAT FALL TO US WHEN, UH, A MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT WITH AN HOA, UH, FALLS OFF THE TABLE. SO THEN WE'VE GOTTA GO IN AND PROVIDE SOME REALLY INTENSIVE WORK ON A LIVING SCREEN THAT HAS GONE UNCHECKED FOR MANY YEARS. WE PREFER TO HAVE A CONTRACTOR DO THAT, UH, WHEN IT'S THAT INTENSIVE. BUT ONCE THE SCREEN IS, IS TRIMMED DOWN TO A MORE MANAGEABLE SIZE, WE CAN PERIODICALLY ONCE A YEAR, UH, ONCE EVERY TWO OR THREE YEARS EVEN GO IN AND MAKE THOSE, UH, SMALLER TRIMMINGS TO KEEP IT IN CHECK AND KEEP IT IN A SUSTAINABLE FORM AND FASHION. BUT WE ARE CONTINUALLY LOOKING AT WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR US TO, UM, PROVIDE THAT SCREEN, WHETHER IT IS A LIVING SCREEN, UH, WE'VE HAD SOME REALLY GOOD SUCCESS IN THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS REPLACING OLD LIVING SCREENS WITH NEWER LIVING SCREENS, WITH IRRIGATION, UH, PROPER, UH, LANDSCAPING SO THAT IT DOESN'T GROW OUT OF CONTROL. WE CAN MAINTAIN IT MORE FREQUENTLY OR WITH A SCREENING WALL. SO THERE'S A LOT OF OPTIONS THAT ARE ALWAYS IN PLAY, AND WE'RE CONTINUALLY EVALUATING THOSE. WELL, AND THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THAT INFORMATION. SO THAT ALL KIND OF COMES TO THE, THE QUESTION I GUESS I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, IF WE HAVE, IF WE'RE GOING TO REACH KIND OF A STABILIZED LEVEL, UM, OF, YOU KNOW, THE TYPE OF, OF LESS INTENSE, UH, ONGOING MAINTENANCE THAT, THAT IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO DO IN-HOUSE, UM, HOW THEN WILL WE END UP AT THAT RATIO OF ONLY 10% IN-HOUSE, UH, 90% CONTRACTOR? WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE THINK IS GOOD FOR LIVING SCREENS. 90% OF THE WORK ON THE LIVING SCREEN WITH A CONTRACT, 10% IN HOUSE. AND IF WHEN WE DO GET TO THE POINT WHERE THE MAJORITY OF OUR SCREENS ARE UNDER CONTROL, THEN THE CONTRACT NUMBER WOULD GRADUALLY GO DOWN AS WE'RE ABLE TO MAINTAIN IT WITH WHAT WE'VE GOT IN HOUSE. OKAY, GOTCHA. YOU KNOW, AND I GUESS IF THAT, IF THAT EQUIPMENT IS, IS, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE EQUIPMENT WOULD BE SIX FIGURE EQUIPMENT TO DO THIS, AND DO WE HAVE AN ESTIMATE OF HOW MANY YEARS THIS INTENSIVE TRIMMING PERIOD IS, IS GONNA BE GOING ON? WELL, I THINK WE'RE GETTING CLOSE. I MEAN, A LOT OF THE AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN A REAL PROBLEM WITH THIS CONTRACT THAT'S IN PLACE, AND WE'VE DONE IT FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS HAS BEEN VERY EFFECTIVE. SO WE LIKE THE DIRECTION THAT WE'RE GOING. I WOULD SAY, UH, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE, UH, AN UPDATE MAYBE IN THE NEXT THREE OR FOUR YEARS TO SEE WHERE WE ARE CITYWIDE WITH THOSE SCREENS THAT HAVE BEEN, UH, GONE UNCHECKED BY CERTAIN, UH, LANDSCAPE AGREEMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SPECIFICALLY. THERE'S, UH, ACROSS FROM THE, THE NEW, UH, COLLIN CREEK MALL DEVELOPMENT ON ALMA ROAD, THOSE, UH, LIVING STREAMS WERE, WERE REALLY OUT OF CONTROL. AND SO WE'VE DONE SOME INTENSIVE WORK THERE OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN'T DO EVERY YEAR, OTHERWISE YOU REALLY RUN THE RISK OF KILLING THE LIVING MATERIAL. SO YOU HAVE TO GO INCREMENTALLY. OKAY, GOTCHA. WELL, I, I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE GIVEN, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THE, UH, YOU KNOW, THE, THE ONE TIME COST OF THE, UH, OF THE EQUIPMENT BEING SIX FIGURES AND THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT WE MAY, UM, ONLY BE IN THIS INTENSIVE PERIOD FOR ANOTHER THREE OR FOUR YEARS, IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT MAY NOT, YOU KNOW, IT MAY BE MORE COST EFFECTIVE TO UTILIZE A CONTRACTOR THAT ALREADY HAS THIS EQUIPMENT, BUT I'D LOVE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, KNOW OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS IF, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S POSSIBLE AS, AS WE START TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, KNOCK MORE OF THIS INTENSIVE MAINTENANCE OUT AND HAVE MORE, UM, OF THE ONGOING MAINTENANCE TO, TO BRING MORE IN-HOUSE SO THAT HOPEFULLY WE CAN, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE TO BE COST EFFECTIVE. AND I ALWAYS APPRECIATE THE GREAT INFORMATION THAT YOU AND YOUR TEAM PROVIDE, UH, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S MOWING OR LIVING SCREEN MAINTENANCE OR ANYTHING ELSE, YOU KNOW, ABOUT HOW, UM, HOW WE CAN BE COST EFFECTIVE BY IT, BY BRINGING THINGS IN-HOUSE. SO THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR THAT. AND WITH THAT INFORMATION, I'LL, I'LL MOVE TO APPROVE. THANK YOU. SECOND MOTION. THANK YOU. I HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND TO APPROVE ITEM C. PLEASE VOTE. THANK YOU. MOTION PASSES EIGHT TO EIGHT TO ZERO. NEXT ITEM ITEMS FOR [(1)  Consideration of an Appeal of the Heritage Commission’s Denial of a Certificate of Appropriateness to make storefront alterations at the front (west) facade at 1422 K Avenue.  Applicant: Tom McGill] INDIVIDUAL CONSIDERATION. PUBLIC HEARING ITEMS, APPLICANTS ARE LIMITED TO 15 MINUTES PRESENTATION TIME WITH A FIVE MINUTE REBUTTAL IF NEEDED. REMAINING SPEAKERS ARE LIMITED TO 30 TOTAL MINUTES OF TESTIMONY TIME WITH THREE MINUTES ASSIGNED FOR SPEAKER. IT'S PRESIDING. OFFICER MAYS AMENDED THESE TIMES AS DEEMED NECESSARY NON-PUBLIC HEARING ITEMS. PRESIDING OFFICER WILL PERMIT PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ITEMS ON THE AGENDA NOT POSTED FOR A PUBLIC HEARING. PRESIDING OFFICER WILL ESTABLISH TIME LIMITS BASED UPON THE NUMBER OF SPEAKER REQUESTS, LENGTH OF THE AGENDA, AND TO ENSURE MEETING EFFICIENCY AND MAY INCLUDE A CUMULATIVE TIME LIMIT. SPEAKERS WILL BE CALLED IN THE ORDER OF THE REQUESTS WERE [00:40:01] RECEIVED UNTIL THE CUMULATIVE TIME IS EXHAUSTED. ITEM NUMBER ONE, CONSIDERATION OF AN APPEAL OF THE HERITAGE HERITAGE COMMISSION'S DENIAL OF A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS TO MAKE STOREFRONT ALTERATIONS AT THE FRONT WEST FACADE AT 1422 K AVENUE. GOOD EVENING, MAYOR AND COUNSEL. I'M MIKE BELL, CONFERENCE PLANNING MANAGER IN THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT. WE HAVE KIND OF A UNIQUE ITEM FOR YOU TONIGHT. IT DOESN'T COME UP VERY OFTEN. IT'S AN APPEAL OF A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS THAT WAS DENIED BY THE HERITAGE COMMISSION. IT'S UNIQUE IN THAT THE HERITAGE COMMISSION DOES NOT OFTEN DENY CAS. UM, IN FACT, WE DON'T OFTEN HAVE APPEALS EITHER. THE LAST APPEAL THAT CAME TO COUNCIL WAS FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO, AND THIS IS THE FIRST APPEAL, UM, UNDER THE NEW STANDARDS FOR THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT SINCE IT WAS ADOPTED IN 2016. AND WE THINK THAT'S A TESTAMENT TO HOW EFFECTIVE THE STANDARDS ARE AND REALLY OUR, OUR COMMITMENT TO GETTING PEOPLE TO, TO A YES IN AN APPROVABLE APPROVABLE CONDITION. GETTING INTO THE SPECIFICS OF TONIGHT, I'LL GIVE YOU KINDA THE OVERVIEW AND THEN WE'LL, WE'LL START TO UNPACK IT. THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED AT 1422 K AVENUE AND LOCATED WITHIN THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT. IT'S CURRENTLY OCCUPIED BY MCNEIL'S TAVERN IN EATERY, WHO IS THE BUSINESS TENANT AND ALSO THE APPLICANT FOR THE CA. UH, THE CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS IS REQUESTED FOR DOORS. UM, BUT I'LL NOTE THAT THE REPLACEMENT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. THE DOORS HAVE BEEN REMOVED, AND NEW DOORS HAVE BEEN INSTALLED. AND SO THIS IS SEEKING RETROACTIVE APPROVAL TO BRING THEM INTO COMPLIANCE. COMPLIANCE. AND THE CA WAS DENIED BY THE HERITAGE COMMISSION ON MARCH 28TH. UH, IT IS LOCATED IN THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT AND ALSO WITHIN THE DOWNTOWN'S LISTING ON THE NATIONAL REGISTER OF HISTORIC PLACES. IT'S PROPERTY NUMBER 35 THAT ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE MAP. UH, IMPORTANT TO NOTE IS, UH, AS YOU'RE AWARE, UM, PLAINTIFF DOES NOT HAVE A, UH, A LARGE NUMBER OF HISTORIC RESOURCES OUT OF A CITY OF 290,000 AND OVER 200,000 JOBS. WE HAVE JUST ONE, UM, HISTORIC BUSINESS DISTRICT, AND THAT BEING THE DOWNTOWN AREA, A LITTLE HISTORY OF THIS PROPERTY SPECIFICALLY. IT WAS BUILT IN THE EARLY 19 HUNDREDS. IT'S A VERNACULAR COMMERCIAL STYLE, WHICH IS FOR THE DOWNTOWN AREA, HISTORICALLY RETAIL AND COMMERCIAL USES. AND AGAIN, IT'S UNIQUE IN THAT IT HAS FIVE ADDRESSES ON ONE LOT. SO THE FOUR DOORS YOU SEE IN THE PHOTO ARE 1422 THROUGH 1428 K AVENUE. THERE'S A SEPARATE BUILDING THAT FACES 15TH STREET. THE PROPERTY WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE IS THE ONE OUTLINED IN RED, THE ONE STORY BUILDING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PHOTO. A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND. UM, THIS PROPERTY DID RECEIVE A CA IN 2019, AND IT WAS A SUBSTANTIAL CA IT INCLUDED PARTIAL DEMOLITION OF THE, THE PROPERTY ON THAT FACE. ITS 15TH STREET, YOU CAN SEE THERE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE PHOTO. UM, AND THEN THEY WERE CONSTRUCTING A NEW FOUR STORY EDITION AT THE REAR OF THE PROPERTY. UH, THAT DID NOT INCLUDE ANY CHANGES TO THE HISTORIC STOREFRONTS. THE PROPERTY OWNER HAS ABANDONED THOSE PLANS AND THE CA HAS SINCE EXPIRED. UH, IN 2022, THE SUITE GOT A NEW TENANT. UM, THE SUITE WAS RENOVATED FOR MCNEIL'S TAVERN. THEY DID RECEIVE A BUILDING PERMIT FOR THOSE INTERIOR RENOVATIONS, BUT IMPORTANT TO NOTE, IT DID NOT INCLUDE THE SCOPE OF THAT PERMIT. DID NOT INCLUDE ANY EXTERIOR CHANGES. UH, ONCE THE WORK WAS COMPLETE, STAFF DID, UH, IDENTIFY THAT THE WORK WAS DONE WITHOUT THE NECESSARY APPROVALS. WE MET WITH THE APPLICANT IN AUGUST AND INFORMED THEM, UM, THAT THIS WAS, THIS WAS OUT OF COMPLIANCE AND THAT IT MAY AFFECT THEIR TAX EXEMPTION. SO WE REALLY WANTED TO BE PROACTIVE WITH THEM AND, AND GET THEM, UM, IN THE COMPLIANCE AS SOON AS WE COULD. UM, WE DIDN'T HEAR MUCH AFTER THAT. SO WE MET AGAIN WITH THE APPLICANT AND THE OWNER IN NOVEMBER TO DISCUSS OPTIONS TO BRING IT INTO COMPLIANCE AGAIN WITH THE TAX EXEMPTION DEADLINE LOOMING. UM, ULTIMATELY THEY CHOSE NOT TO APPLY FOR THE TAX EXEMPTION, UM, BUT DID END UP SUBMITTING THE CA APPLICATION IN FEBRUARY OF THIS YEAR. THE SCOPE OF THE PROJECT INCLUDES REMOVAL OF THE BI FOLDING ACCORDION STYLE DOORS THAT YOU SEE IN THE PHOTO ON THE LEFT. THEY WERE WOOD FRAMED WITH GLASS, AND THEY HAVE ALREADY INSTALLED THE NEW ROLL UP STYLE DOOR, WHICH HAS ALUMINUM FRAMING. UH, AGAIN, GLASS PANS THAT ARE MORE OF HORIZONTAL PRO HORIZONTAL PROPORTIONS. THE DOOR DOES FUNCTION, UH, TO OPEN, TO CREATE AN OPEN AIR DINING EXPERIENCE AND, UH, A UNIQUE AMBIANCE. SO YOU CAN SEE THAT'S HOW THE, THE DOOR OPERATES. AND THEN UNIQUE IS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 1422, BUT THE, THE ACTUAL RESTAURANT OCCUPIES TWO SPACES, UM, THAT FUNCTION AS ONE. IT'S 1422 AND 1424, BUT ONLY THE DOOR ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PHOTO IS THE ONE IN QUESTION. AND AS I MENTIONED, THE COUNCIL DOESN'T SEE THIS, UM, THESE TYPES OF REQUESTS VERY OFTEN. SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO WALK THROUGH, UM, WHAT THE HERITAGE COMMISSION CONSIDERS WHEN THEY'RE REVIEWING CERTIFICATES OF APPROPRIATENESS. IT, IT'S KIND OF A, UM, [00:45:01] A COMMON CON MISCONCEPTION THAT IT'S, THE COMMISSION IS PRETTY POLICED, THAT IT'S ABOUT WHAT LOOKS GOOD OR WHAT DOESN'T. BUT I, I WANNA DEMONSTRATE TO YOU THAT THERE IS A METHODOLOGY ABOUT WHAT IS APPROPRIATE OR WHAT IS NOT, AND HOW THE COMMISSION APPLIED THAT. IN THIS CASE. THERE ARE FOUR STEPS. UM, THE FIRST IS TO DETER, DETERMINE THE BUILDING'S SIGNIFICANCE. IS IT, IS IT HISTORIC OR NOT? UH, TO DO THAT, YOU START WITH THE DATE THAT THE BUILDING WAS CONSTRUCTED. UH, WE HAVE TWO PERIODS THAT WE LOOK AT THE PERIOD OF FOCUS AND THE PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE. UM, AND THEN IF IT'S BUILT OUTSIDE OF THOSE, UH, IT, IT'S NOT HISTORIC. SO THOSE TWO PERIODS ARE WHAT WE WOULD, IF YOU'RE BUILT IN THAT, IN THAT PERIOD, YOU COULD BE CONSIDERED CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISTRICT. THAT'S A TERM I'M GONNA BE USING. AND THEN THE DESIGN STANDARDS ARE MEANT TO GIVE MORE OR LESS FLEXIBILITY DEPENDING ON WHEN YOU WERE BUILT AND HOW SIGNIFICANT YOU ARE TO THE DISTRICT. THE PROPERTY WE'RE LOOKING AT IS WITHIN THE PERIOD OF FOCUS. SO IT IS ONE OF THOSE THAT'S, UM, KEY TO THE KEY TO THE, UM, THE STATUS OF THE DISTRICT. BECAUSE OF THAT, IT'S CONTIV, IT'S CONSIDERED CONTRIBUTING TO THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT AND ALSO CONTRIBUTING TO THE NATIONAL REGISTER LISTING. UM, BUT IMPORTANT TO NOTE IS THAT WE HAVE THESE SURVEYS DONE EVERY FEW YEARS, UH, BY THIRD PARTY CONSULTANTS, AND THEY NOTED THAT ALTHOUGH THE STOREFRONT ALTERATIONS ON 1422 DEPART FROM HISTORIC PRECEDENTS, THEY ARE KEY CONTRIBUTORS TO THE DISTRICT. AND W WHAT I WANNA CAUTION ON THAT IS I, IS WE THINK THAT THE PROPERTY IS BORDERLINE CONTRIBUTING BASED ON THE ALTERATIONS THAT HAVE, THAT WERE PREEXISTING TO TODAY. UM, SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? IT'S A CONTRIBUTING BUILDING. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE MAINTAIN THE CARE, THE KEY CHARACTER DEFYING ELEMENTS THAT VARIES FROM PROPERTY TO PROPERTY, BUT GENERALLY, THE KIND OF FEATURES YOU SEE ARE, ARE LISTED HERE. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE PRESERVE THOSE ORIGINAL MATERIALS WHERE THEY EXIST. AND SPECIFIC TO THIS BUILDING, WE NEED TO USE CAUTION THAT THE FUTURE ALTERATIONS DON'T JEOPARDIZE THAT CONTRIBUTING STATUS. AGAIN, WE THINK IT'S BORDERLINE. THE NEXT STEP IS TO LOOK AT BUILDING INTEGRITY. AND AGAIN, ONCE THOSE KEY, IN SHORT, IT IS LOOKING AT THOSE KEY CHARACTER DEFINING FEATURES AND SAYING, WHAT CONDITION ARE THEY IN? IF THEY'RE MOSTLY ORIGINAL AND THEY'RE IN GOOD CONDITION, IT'S CONSIDERED TO HAVE HIGH INTEGRITY. IF THEY'RE SUBSTANTIALLY ALTERED OR IN BAD CONDITION, IT'S LOW INTEGRITY. AND, AND BASED ON WHERE YOU FALL IN THAT RANGE, YOU'RE IN ONE OF FOUR CATEGORIES RANGING FROM INTACT, MOSTLY ORIGINAL TO SUBSTANTIALLY ALTERED. UM, AND THROUGH THE RENOVATION PROCESS, YOU CAN MOVE FROM ONE CATEGORY TO ANOTHER. LOOKING AT THE PROPERTY AT 1422, YOU CAN SEE ON THE TOP LEFT IS THE OLDEST PHOTO WE HAVE ON FILE. IT IS FROM THE PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE, APPEARS TO BE IN PROBABLY THE 1950S. UH, AND, AND WHAT THE ORIGINAL STOREFRONT LOOKED LIKE. UH, AND THE BOTTOM LEFT IS A PHOTO FROM 1980S. YOU CAN SEE THAT THE STOREFRONT HAD BEEN ALTERED, IT'S PROBABLY TO MODERNIZE IN THE MID-CENTURY. UH, AND THAT STAYED THAT WAY UNTIL THE MID TWO THOUSANDS. THERE'S A 2003 PHOTO THERE, UM, IN THE BOTTOM. AND, UH, AGAIN, THE STOREFRONTS MOSTLY THE SAME WITH THE, THE CHANGE IN CANOPY. AND THEN IN THE MID TWO THOUSANDS, A PREVIOUS TENANT, UH, KELLY'S EAST SIDE OCCUPIED THE SPACE AND BUILT THE CANOPY, THE OUTDOOR SEATING, AND CONSTRUCTED THE DOORS, THE WOOD DOORS THAT YOU CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO ON THE RIGHT, IT'S THE INTEGRITY FOR 1422 IS IT DOES MAINTAIN SOME ORIGINAL MATERIALS. BRICK INSTRUCTION, PARAPET WALLS, PROPORTIONS OF THE OPENING HAVEN'T CHANGED, BUT IT DOES HAVE THOSE NON HISTORIC ALTERATIONS THAT WERE MENTIONED IN THE SURVEY, THE DOORS, WINDOWS, AND THE CANOPY. UH, WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE PROPERTY IN TERMS OF ANALYSIS IS IT IS THE MODERATELY ALTERED CATEGORY. UH, AND THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT. IT'S BECAUSE THOSE PREVIOUS DOORS ARE NOT ORIGINAL. THEIR PRESERVATION IS NOT CRITICAL TO THE INTEGRITY OF THE BUILDING. WE'RE NOT CONCERNED THAT THE EXISTING BU THAT THE EXISTING DOORS WERE REMOVED, THAT THAT'S NOT A CONCERN IN THIS CASE. BUT IDEALLY, THE REPLACEMENT DOORS WOULD IMPROVE THE INTEGRITY THAT THE BOTTOM LINE KIND OF, UH, BE A SIDEWAYS MOVEMENT, NOT REDUCE THE INTEGRITY OF THE BUILDING. SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE'RE LOOKING FOR. UM, STEP THREE IS TO LOOK AT THE USE. WHAT'S THE DESIRED USE OF THE PROJECT? THE BEST ONE IS ALWAYS WHAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR, BUT THE STANDARDS ARE INTENDED TO BE ADAPTIVE AND FLEXIBLE TO ALLOW PROPERTIES TO STAY IN USE. THE BEST WAY TO PRESERVE A BUILDING IS TO USE IT AND NOT LET IT GO VACANT. UH, FOR THIS PROPERTY, WE BAR RESTAURANT IS APPROPRIATE BASED ON ITS HISTORY AND ITS LOCATION, UM, DUE TO THE LACK OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS, WE ALSO THINK THAT USE OF THE DOOR TO CREATE THAT OPEN AIR DINING EXPERIENCE IS APPROPRIATE. AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL STOREFRONT, AND THAT IS A FUNCTIONAL ADAPTATION THAT MAKES THE BUILDING FLEXIBLE. UH, HOWEVER, WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT PROPORTIONS OF THE STOREFRONT OPENING ARE HISTORIC, SO WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THE OPENING WIDENED OR CHANGED AT ALL. AND THEN THE LAST STEP IS CHOOSING THE APPROPRIATE TREATMENT STRATEGY. SO, YOU KNOW, THE, YOU KNOW, TAKING THE FIRST THREE STEPS, YOU CAN CHOOSE WHAT'S THE APPROPRIATE STRATEGY HERE. IT VARIES FROM BUILDING TO BUILDING BASED ON THE INDIVIDUAL CONSIDERATIONS, BUT BASICALLY THERE ARE FIVE STEPS, AND THEY'RE IN A PREFERRED ORDER AS LISTED HERE. THE FIRST IS TO PRESERVE, IF YOU HAVE AN ORIGINAL MATERIAL, KEEP IT AS IS. YOU DON'T HAVE [00:50:01] AN ORIGINAL IN THIS CASE, SO THAT DOESN'T APPLY. THE SECOND IS TO REPAIR, IF IT'S, IF IT'S ORIGINAL, BUT IT'S DETERIORATED, THE INTENT IS TO REPAIR IT BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION. AGAIN, THAT DOESN'T APPLY IN THIS CASE. SO MOVING ON, THE THIRD PREFERENCE WOULD BE TO RECONSTRUCT IT. SO IF IT'S MISSING ENTIRELY AS IT IS IN THIS CASE, YOU WOULD RECONSTRUCT IT FROM THE APPROPRIATE EVIDENCE. AND THAT'S THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WE SHOWED BEFORE. THAT WOULD BE THE PREFERRED OPTION IN THIS CASE. BUT THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES YOU COULD REPLACE IF THERE'S NO EVIDENCE, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE HERE, BUT YOU COULD REPLACE WITH A SIMPLIFIED INTERPRETATION OF THE ORIGINAL, WHICH HAS BEEN DONE IN OTHER LOCATIONS DOWNTOWN, OR YOU COULD DO A COMPATIBLE ALTERATION. UM, IF AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T, UM, MINI, AS LONG AS IT MINIMIZES THE IMPACT TO ORIGINAL FEATURES AND DISTINGUISHES NEW FROM ORIGINAL IS ANOTHER POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE. IN THIS CASE, WE WOULD IDEALLY LIKE TO SEE THE SITE RECONSTRUCTED BASED ON THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE, BUT WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT'S REALLY NOT THE SCOPE OF THE PERMIT HERE. THEY'RE NOT DOING A FULL ON REHABILITATION. UM, SO WE THINK THAT AN OPEN AIR ADAPTATION IS AN ACCEPTABLE ALTERNATIVE, SO LONG AS IT MEETS THE STANDARDS OF THE DISTRICT. AND, AND WE, WE AGREE WITH THE INTENT OF CREATING THAT DINING EXPERIENCE. SO LOOKING AT SPECIFIC STANDARDS OF THE DOWNTOWN AREA, SOME GUIDANCES THAT IS TO AVOID CONFUSING MIXES OF STYLES OR PERIODS THAT AFFECT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE PROPERTY STAFF'S ANALYSIS. THE ROLLUP DOOR DOES CREATE A MIX OF STYLES FROM THE CONTEMPORARY STYLES, MATERIALS, AND PROPORTIONS THAT ARE NOT, UM, OFTEN SEEN IN THE DOWNTOWN DISTRICT. UH, I WANNA NOTE THOUGH THAT THE ROLLUP DOOR IN ITSELF IS, IS NOT NECESSARILY A PROBLEM. IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE ON A BUILDING THAT HAD A AUTOMOTIVE USE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THEY HAD ROLLUP DOORS. THIS WOULD BE A, A VERY APPROPRIATE APPLICATION IN THAT SITUATION. UH, WHAT WE WOULD RECOMMEND IS A SLIDING OR A HINGE DOOR THAT WHEN FULLY CLOSED REPLICATES THE HISTORIC STOREFRONT. IT ALSO GOES ON TO SAY THAT MANY STOREFRONTS IN DOWNTOWN HAVE, UH, COMPONENTS SEEN ON COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS. THIS REPETITION, UH, IS CREATES THIS UNITY ALONG THE STREET THAT'S WORTH PRESERVING IN OUR ANALYSIS. THE PROPOSED HORIZONTAL PROPORTIONS AND MULTI GLASS PANELS, ALUMINUM FRAMES ARE MORE CONTEMPORARY THAN THE OTHER BUILDINGS ON THE BLOCK. AND THIS BREAKS THAT REPETITION ALONG KAY AVENUE AND I, AND I'LL SHOW YOU THAT PHOTO IN A SECOND. UM, BUT I, WE ALSO WANNA ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT REPETITION ISN'T TOTALLY OBVIOUS, JUST STANDING ON THE STREET BECAUSE THERE IS A CANOPY, A DINING AREA, A TREE IN FRONT, IT IS HARD TO SEE THAT REPETITION JUST STANDING OR JUST PASSING BY ON THE, IN YOUR CAR. BUT YOU CAN'T SEE, THESE ARE THE TWO PROPERTIES TO THE LEFT AND THE TWO PROPERTIES TO THE RIGHT. GENERALLY, THEY MAINTAIN THE SAME CHARACTERS FOUND THROUGH MOST OF DOWNTOWN AND HAVE A CENTRAL DOOR, UH, A STOREFRONT WINDOW ON EITHER SIDE, GENERALLY VERTICAL PROPORTIONS IN THOSE OPENINGS. AND THERE IS SOME FLEXIBILITY IN THE DESIGN OF REPLACEMENT IF IT REFLECTS THE SCALE AND PROPORTION OF THE TRADITIONAL PLANO STOREFRONT. AGAIN, THOSE HORIZONTAL PROPORTIONS ARE, ARE THE KEY IN THIS ONE, CUZ THAT ROLL UP DOOR IS NOT TYPICAL FOR PLANO STOREFRONTS. UH, THEY WOULD TYPICALLY BE DIVIDED IN THE MULTIPLE DOORS AND WINDOWS FOR THOSE PORT VERTICAL PROPORTIONS. AND AGAIN, UM, FRENCH BI FOLDING OR SLIDE AND FOLD TYPE DOORS THAT HAVE BEEN USED ELSEWHERE IN THE DISTRICT, UH, WOULD BE A MORE APPROPRIATE APPLICATION TO MAINTAIN THAT OPEN AIR EFFECT. UH, TO SUMMARIZE THE ISSUES, AGAIN, THE BUILDING IS CONTRIBUTING, BUT HAS LOST SOME OF THAT INTEGRITY DUE TO THE ALTERATIONS OVER THE YEARS. UH, WE, WE URGE CAUTION THAT ANY FUTURE ALTERATIONS NOT REDUCE THE INTEGRITY AND JEOPARDIZE THE CONTRIBUTING STATUS OF THE PROPERTY. AGAIN, THOSE PREVIOUS DOORS WERE NOT HISTORIC, SO THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CONCERN HERE, BUT WE WANT THE DOORS TO MEET THAT, THE REPLACEMENT DOORS TO MEET THE DESIGN STANDARDS. UH, IDEALLY RECONSTRUCTION WOULD BE THE PREFERRED TREATMENT HERE, UM, BUT A CONTEMPORARY INTERPRETATION COULD ALSO BE APPROPRIATE IF IT MEETS THOSE PROPORTIONS AND THE REPETITION AS DESCRIBED. I'M GONNA WRAP UP HERE, UM, SINCE THE HERITAGE COMMISSION DOESN'T HAVE THE VIDEO, LIKE YOU MAY BE USED TO SEEING WITH PLANNING AND ZONING, I'M GONNA RECAP THE DISCUSSION AT THE COMMISSION. UM, IT IS OUTLINED IN THE VICE-CHAIR REPORT PROVIDED IN THE PACKET. UM, BUT AFTER A STAFF PRESENTATION, THE APPLICANT DID STATE THAT, UH, THE ACCORDION DOORS WERE IN BAD CONDITION. THEY NEEDED TO BE REPAIRED. UH, THEY, THEY WEREN'T BEING GONNA BE ABLE TO BE SAVED. UM, THEY WERE NOT AWARE THAT THE CA WAS REQUIRED. THE BUILDING OWNER DIDN'T INFORM HIM, NOR DID HIS CONTRACTOR. UH, HE BELIEVES THAT ROLLUP DOORS CREATE THAT UNIQUE DINING EXPERIENCE AND, AND HELPS PROMOTE ITS BUSINESS. AND, UH, COMMENTS THAT, THAT PEOPLE MAKE POSITIVE COMMENTS. UH, HE OWNS SEVERAL RESTAURANTS WITH ROLL UP DOORS, AND THEY, THEY'RE ALL VERY SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE OF THAT CONCEPT, AND HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THE DOOR DETRACTS FROM THE HISTORIC CHARACTER. SOME QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE APPLICANT WAS, DO YOU HAVE OTHER RESTAURANTS THAT USE THIS STYLE OF DOOR? AND ARE THEY IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS? AGAIN, THE ANSWER, HE, HE DOES HAVE RESTAURANTS, BUT THAT USE THESE DOORS, BUT THEY'RE NOT LOCATED IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS. A COMMENT WAS THAT THE BUILDING LOOKS GENERALLY VERY APPEALING. IT'S UNFORTUNATE THE OWNER DIDN'T INFORM ME OF THE REQUIREMENT TO GET A CA. UH, [00:55:01] AND THEN ARE YOU OPPOSED TO REPLACING WITH A MORE SUITABLE DOOR? AND AGAIN, THE APPLICANT, UH, STATED THAT THE, THE DOOR HAD ALREADY, ALREADY BEEN, HAD ALREADY BEEN INSTALLED, THE MONEY HAD BEEN SPENT. IT WAS HIS INTENT TO SEE THIS PROCESS, UH, THROUGH THE APPEALS. UM, SOME QUESTIONS FROM COMMISSION TO STAFF. SOME OF THESE YOU MAY BE THINKING YOURSELF IS, WAS STAFF ABLE TO SIT DOWN WITH THE APPLICANT AND GO THROUGH THE OPTIONS? AGAIN? WE, WE ALWAYS TRY TO DO THAT. WE TRY TO GET THEM TO A YES, UH, BUT IN THIS CASE IT W IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THEY WERE INTENT ON, ON SEEKING APPROVAL FOR WHAT HAD ALREADY BEEN INSTALLED. UH, HOW DID THIS GO THROUGH PERMITTING? WITHOUT ALERTING THE APPLICANT, THE CA IS REQUIRED. AGAIN, THAT'S BECAUSE THE SCOPE OF THAT PERMIT DIDN'T INCLUDE THE EXTERIOR OF RENOVATIONS. TYPICALLY, IF IT HAD BUILDING INSPECTIONS, WOULD'VE FLAGGED IT AND ALERTED THE HERITAGE TEAM AND, AND THE CA WOULD'VE BEEN REQUIRED AT THAT POINT. IF IT'S DENIED, CAN THEY CHOOSE NOT TO REPLACE IT? UH, WELL AGAIN, AND THAT POINT, IT'S A, IT'S A ZONING VIOLATION. SO, UH, THERE IS ENFORCEMENT, UH, STEPS THAT COULD BE TAKEN IF IT'S APPROVED WITH THE PROPERTY AUTOMATICALLY LOSE CONTRIBUTING STATUS. THIS IS A TRICKY QUESTION. IT'S NOT GONNA BE AUTOMATIC. AGAIN, WE HAVE THIRD PARTY COMPANIES COME THROUGH EVERY FEW YEARS AND THEY GIVE US OUR THIRD, THEIR THIRD PARTY RECOMMENDATION AS TO WHETHER THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING OR NOT. WE THINK THAT IT, IT COULD LOSE THE STATUS, UM, BASED ON ITS APPROVAL, BUT IT'S NOT GUARANTEED. UH, WOULD THE LOSS OF CONTRIBUTING STATUS IMPACT THE PROPERTY OWNER OR THE APPLICANT IN THIS CASE IS THE PROPERTY OWNER, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE ELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE THE TAX EXEMPTION OR THE TAX CREDITS FROM THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. UH, HOW WILL THE LOSS OF CONTRIBUTING STATUS IMPACT THE DISTRICT OVERALL? UM, THIS ONE PROPERTY GOING TO NON-CONTRIBUTING IS NOT GONNA MAKE, UH, IS NOT GONNA CHANGE THINGS RADICALLY. BUT AGAIN, AS YOU PIECE THESE OVER TIME, YOU START TO SEE THE SUM OF ALL THIS BECOME, UH, AT SOME POINT THE DISTRICT IS IN JEOPARDY. UM, AND IS THERE ANYTHING TO MAKE THE ROLLUP DOOR WORKABLE? UH, WE, WE'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A LOT. IN, IN OUR OPINION, THERE'S REALLY NOT A LOT THAT CAN BE DONE TO, TO UTILIZE THE EXISTING DOOR. UH, FOLLOWING THOSE QUESTIONS THEY HAD DISCUSSION. UM, I THINK THE KEY POINT WAS THEY FELT THE PROPERTY OWNER SHOULD HAVE INFORMED THEM OF THE APP OF THE REQUIREMENT TO GET A CA AGAIN, THEY HAD, THEY HAD GONE THROUGH THIS PROCESS IN 2019 AND WERE AWARE OF THE REQUIREMENTS, UM, THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER IS THE ONE IMPACTED BY THE LOSS OF THE CONTRIBUTING STATUS. AND THAT MIGHT BE AN INCIDENT FOR THE PROPERTY OWNER TO PARTICIPATE IN REPLACING THE DOOR. AND THEN THERE WAS CONCERNS THAT THAT PRECEDENT WOULD BE SET IN ALLOWING THE ROLLUP DOORS AND HOW THAT WOULD AFFECT THE REST OF THE DISTRICT. TO SUM UP, THE HERITAGE COMMISSION VOTED SEVEN OH TO DENY DENIER REQUEST FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS. THEY FELT THE STYLE DESIGN AND MATERIALS, UH, DIMINISHED THE HISTORIC INTEGRITY OF THE BUILDING. THE DOOR DID NOT MEET THE DOWNTOWN STANDARDS, AND IT'S NOT A COMPATIBLE ALTERATION. THE DOOR JEOPARDIZES THE STATUS AS A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE AND APPROVAL OF THE DOOR MAY SET A PRECEDENT FOR THE DOWNTOWN DISTRICT AND INFLUENCE FUTURE ALTERATIONS IN THEIR CONTRIBUTING STATUS. UM, AND AGAIN, THE ORDINANCE DOES ALLOW THE APPLICANT TO APPEAL CITY COUNCIL. SO YOUR OPTIONS TONIGHT ARE TO GRANT THE APPEAL OR TO UPHOLD THE DECISION OF THE HERITAGE COMMISSION. AND WITH THAT, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. COUNCIL, MR. ELLI? THANK YOU MAYOR, AND THANK YOU, UH, FOR THAT GREAT PRESENTATION. MIKE. UH, I CERTAINLY SYMPATHIZE WITH A, A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER LIKE MR. MCGILL. I ALSO THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO, TO MAINTAIN OUR DOWNTOWN HISTORIC DISTRICT AND MAKE SURE THAT ALL PROPERTY OWNERS ARE, ARE TREATED FAIRLY. IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY, IF, IF, IF THIS TYPE OF ALTERATION WERE TO HAPPEN AT EVERY PROPERTY THAT'S A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE IN THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT, WOULD WE BE, UH, THE DISTRICT WOULD BE JEOPARDIZED POTENTIALLY, UH, NATIONAL REGISTER STATUS WOULD BE, WOULD BE JEOPARDIZED? AM I UNDERSTANDING OF THAT CORRECTLY? THAT'S CORRECT, AND I DON'T WANNA OVERSELL IT, BUT IT, IT IS A RISK. UH, AGAIN, THOSE THIRD PARTIES GIVE US THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS AND ENOUGH, IF ENOUGH BUILDINGS ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING, IT DOESN'T MEAN OUR REQUIREMENTS FOR A HISTORIC DISTRICT. OKAY. AND YOU ALSO ALLUDED TO, UH, TO, TO THE, UH, THE TAX INCENTIVE PROGRAM, UH, YOU KNOW, FOR, UH, UH, UH, HERITAGE TAX EXEMPTIONS. UH, I THINK YOU SAID THAT FOR THIS PAST YEAR AFTER THE ALTERATION WAS MADE, THIS PROPERTY DID NOT APPLY TO, UH, PARTICIPATE IN THE TAX EXEMPTIONS, BUT PRIOR TO THAT, HISTORICALLY, HAS THE PROPERTY RECEIVED TAX EXEMPTIONS THROUGH THE HERITAGE TAX EXEMPTION PROGRAM? YES, THEY HAVE. UM, IN 2022, THEY WERE DENIED FOR NOT HAVING MADE THEIR CORE REGULAR REPAIRS. OKAY. AND THEN THEY CHOSE NOT TO REAPPLY AGAIN TO THE PROGRAM FOR THIS YEAR. OKAY. AND JUST TO GET A FEEL FOR HOW MUCH PLANO TAXPAYERS HAVE INVESTED IN, IN, UH, THE HERITAGE TAX EXEMPTION PROGRAM, AS I RECALL, TYPICALLY WHEN WE APPROVE THAT LIST, IT'S SOMEWHERE OVER A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR, UH, OF, OF TAX EXEMPTIONS IN THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT. IS THAT, IS THAT CORRECT? I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. VESH, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER, I'M SORRY. I DON'T HAVE IT. SORRY. WELL, I I I I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT THAT, THAT WAS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD TOO, JUST THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THAT LIST COMES IN FRONT OF US ONCE A YEAR, AND I FEEL LIKE THAT'S BALLPARK, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WHAT THE, UH, WHAT THE, UH, EXEMPTIONS COST. BUT, UH, AND, AND, AND DO Y'ALL REMEMBER HOW MANY YEARS THAT THAT PROGRAM HAS [01:00:01] BEEN GOING ON? UH, I KNOW IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THE EIGHTIES. YES, SINCE THE EIGHTIES. SO, UM, SO I, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT PLANO TAXPAYERS HAVE INVESTED A VERY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY THROUGH TAX EXEMPTIONS IN PRESERVING THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT. WELL, IT'S A, AGAIN, IT'S A TAX EXEMPTION. YES. SO, YEAH. SO I MEAN, BUT THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER TAXPAYERS WHO ARE YOU, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE, ARE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO KICK IN A LITTLE MORE IF THERE ARE TAX EXEMPTIONS GIVEN, UH, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S BEEN A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT ESSENT, ESSENTIALLY. CORRECT. YEAH. OKAY. WELL, AND, AND, AND FINALLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE AS THE HERITAGE COMMISSION EXPRESSED THAT, UH, THAT NOBODY INFORMED, UH, UH, THIS LESSEE OF THIS PROPERTY THAT, THAT A CA WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR THIS TYPE OF A PROJECT. UM, I KNOW THAT THE, THE OWNER DID NOT INFORM THEM, UH, THEIR CONTRACTOR DID NOT INFORM THEM. UM, DO WE TYPICALLY FIND OUT IF THERE'S A SALE OF PROPERTY IN THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT OR IF PROPERTY IS LEASED? AND IF WE DON'T, IS THERE ANY WAY TO REQUIRE THAT SO THAT, YOU KNOW, SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE PROACTIVE ABOUT INFORMING, UH, NEW, NEW OWNERS AND LESSEE OF, OF REQUIREMENTS? WE DO THAT, WE DO TRY OUR BEST TO LEARN ABOUT THOSE. WE DON'T CATCH THEM ALL. SURE, SURE. UM, WE DO TRY TO WORK WITH PROPERTY OWNERS. TYPICALLY WHEN WE SEE IT IS WHEN A NEW TENANT COMES IN FOR A SIGN, THE SIGN REQUIRES A PERMIT AND A CA AND THAT'S WHEN WE GET A CHANCE TO REACH OUT TO THEM WITH THE NEW TENANT. UM, BUT WE ARE ALSO WORKING WITH MICHELLE HAWKINS, THE NEW DOWNTOWN MANAGER, TO BE A LITTLE MORE PROACTIVE IN REACHING OUT TO THE, THE, THE NEW TENANTS AS THEY COME ONLINE. OKAY. WELL, AND, AND, AND FINAL, FINAL QUESTION. DO WE KNOW DOLLAR AMOUNT, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH, UH, HAS BEEN INVESTED IN THIS NEW, UH, ROLLUP DOOR? I THINK YOU, I THINK YOU CITED NUMBER AROUND 9,000, BUT THE AFRICAN IS, MAY BE ABLE TO ANSWER THAT BETTER. OKAY. OKAY. WELL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT INFORMATION. COUNCIL MEMBER, GRADY, JUST A FEW QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE FROM STAFF, AND I'M TRYING TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF A TIMELINE. UM, UH, IT APPEARS THAT, UH, FROM APPRAISAL DISTRICT RECORDS THAT, UM, THE LABA'S PROPERTY, UM, WAS PURCHASED, UH, IN ABOUT 1993 FROM J L M ENTERPRISES, WHICH SEEMS TO BE A SIMILAR, UH, INITIALS TO THE CURRENT OWNER, UH, JULIETTE LAK. I'M, HOPEFULLY, I'M PRONOUNCING THE, THE NAME CORRECTLY. UM, IS THAT A SIM, IS THAT AN ENTITY A SIMPLY TRANSFERRED THE PROPERTY FROM ONE BUSINESS ENTITY ENTITY THE OWN TO ANOTHER? OR WAS THAT AN ACTUAL NEW PURCHASE SALE? I I DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS OF THAT. I, I KNOW IT IS THE SAME OWNER, MR. MARSH, UM, FROM 2019. UM, OKAY. YES. UM, DO WE KNOW WHEN J L LM PURCHASED THE PROPERTY? I DON'T. DO YOU, DO YOU KNOW INFORMATION MONASH? NO, I DON'T, BUT I THINK WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH MS. LAMAR FOR, EVER SINCE I'M HERE, I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH HER. SO THE PROPERTY OWNER, SHE OWNS THIS PROPERTY IN THE LAST RESOURCE INCORPORATED FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, BUT SHE'S ALWAYS BEEN OUR PROPERTY OWNER CONTACT. OKAY. SO IT WOULD BE PRIOR TO SAY 1980? I CAN'T SAY FOR THAT. I'M NOT SURE. OKAY. UM, FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE FURNISHED, UH, IT APPEARS THAT THE STOREFRONT WAS MODIFIED SOMEWHERE AFTER 1950. I THINK THAT YOU, YOU HAVE THAT ONE PHOTOGRAPH LABELED AS UNKNOWN, BUT I BELIEVE THAT YOUR ESTIMATE IS CORRECT BECAUSE IT, YOU KNOW, IN MY OPINION, AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT, UH, ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THAT'S ABOUT A 1951 PONTIAC CHIEF THEN SITTING IN FRONT OF THE STORE. UM, THEN AGAIN, IT WAS MODIFIED IN 1980 AND IT WAS MODIFIED AGAIN IN 1986, AND THEN AGAIN IN 2003, AND FINALLY IN 2010 TO THE CURRENT MODIFICATION OF THE STOREFRONT. DO I HAVE THAT TIMELINE KIND OF CORRECT. SO THOSE ARE THE PERIODS WHERE WE HAVE PHOTOS. SO THE CHANGE OCCURRED SOMETIME BETWEEN THE FIFTIES AND 1980. IT, IT STAYED ROUGHLY THE SAME. THE CANOPY CHANGED AT SOME POINT PRIOR TO 2003, AND THEN FROM IN 2000, WE DON'T HAVE THE EXACT DATE, BUT MID TWO THOUSANDS IS WHEN KELLY'S EAST SIDE MOVED IN AND ADDED THE CANOPY, THE AWNING, THE OUTDOOR SEATING. MM-HMM. , AND IT STAYED THAT WAY FOR MANY YEARS. UM, KELLY'S WAS THERE FOR A WHILE. UM, AND THEN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS THEY'VE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF TURNOVER IN TENANTS, AND SO THE SIGNAGE HAS, HAS CHANGED, BUT GENERALLY THAT APPEARANCE HAS BEEN THE SAME. OKAY. UM, IT APPEARS THAT THE STOREFRONT WAS MODIFIED IN 1980. THAT WAS PROBABLY A SIGNIFICANT MODIFICATION BECAUSE THE, UM, THE BRICK FRONTAGE ON EITHER SIDE OF THE CENTRAL DOOR WERE REMOVED AND FULL LENGTH WINDOWS WERE PUT IN AND THE, UM, THE ACTUAL DOOR WAS MOVED IN ITS LOCATION. UM, AND I ASSUMED THAT THERE WAS NO HERITAGE COMMISSION, UM, AT THE TIME TO REALLY BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE MODIFICATION. THAT'S, UM, THE HERITAGE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE DID NOT GO INTO EFFECT UNTIL 1979. SO THIS COULD HAVE BEEN PRIOR TO 1980. YEAH. BUT AGAIN, THE, THE DOWNTOWN DISTRICT WASN'T FORMED INTO UNTIL 2002. OKAY. AND THEN IT, IT, UH, THE [01:05:01] STOREFRONT WAS MODIFIED AGAIN IN 2003, APPROXIMATELY TO AN OPEN AIR STYLE WITH ACCORDION DOORS. UM, WAS THERE ANY CONCERN OF THE MODIFICATION IN REMOVING THE, UM, THEN CURRENT STOREFRONT TO AN OPEN AIR ENVIRONMENT? WE DON'T HAVE THE, THE, THE RECORD FROM THAT TIME TO STATE IF THERE WAS CONCERN. UM, AGAIN, I THINK THE, THE CONTEXT MATTERS A BIT IN THAT IT WAS EARLY TWO THOUSANDS AND THAT WAS DOWNTOWN RE REVITALIZING AND TRYING TO COME BACK FROM, ITS, UM, A LITTLE BIT OF PERIOD OF DECLINE. AND SO I THINK THERE WAS PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE FLEXIBILITY GIVEN AT THAT TIME THAN THERE IS TODAY. OKAY. SO IF I'M UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY, THERE WASN'T A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT TAKING THE STOREFRONT OFF AND, AND PUTTING ON ACCORDION DOORS AND LEAVING IT AS AN OPEN AIR ENVIRONMENT, WHICH WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT MODIFICATION, EVEN THOUGH THE SPACE WAS THE SAME SIZE. PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART, BUT I DON'T HAVE A RECORD TO INDICATE THAT. OKAY. AND, AND KIND OF DOVETAILING ON, UM, COUNCILMAN RICK'S QUESTION. UM, WHEN THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT STARTS LOOKING AT THESE THINGS, UH, FOR BUILDING PERMITS, DO THEY NOTIFY THE HERITAGE COMMISSION IF THIS DEALS WITH A, UM, WITH A HISTORICAL STRUCTURE? YES, THEY DO. IF THE SCOPE OF THE CHANGES INCLUDES EXTERIOR CHANGES, YES. TYPICALLY WE ARE ALERTED. OKAY. THANKS. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? UH, YES. BEAR, I'M GIVEN TO UNDERSTAND THAT ANOTHER PROPERTY IN THE AREA, URBAN CRUST, HAS A RULE UP DOOR. I NEVER NOTICED IT, BUT, UM, UH, CAN YOU SPEAK TO WHAT MIGHT MAKE THAT DIFFERENT? SURE. I ACTUALLY HAVE PHOTOS OF THOSE DOORS. SO, UM, IN, IN THE CASE OF THOSE, THERE'S ACTUALLY TWO LOCATIONS, EVENT 10 13, UM, AS WELL AS URBAN CRUST. YOU CAN SEE THOSE, THOSE DOORS DO NOT ROLL UP. THEY ESSENTIALLY ARE HINGED AND FOLD UP, UH, AS IS AS OH, AND THE ONE ON THE RIOTS ACCORDION STYLE, BUT ESSENTIALLY THE SAME FUNCTION. THEY FOLD UP AND NOT ROLL UP. AND THEN THEY ALSO HAVE THE ADDED FUNCTION OF, YOU SEE HERE, THEY ACTUALLY MIMIC THE FLAT CANOPY THAT WOULD TYPICALLY BE SEEN ON A HISTORIC STOREFRONT. SO THEY KIND OF SERVE TWO PURPOSES AND THEY LOOK MORE VERTICALLY ORIENTED. CORRECT. THANK YOU. COUNCIL MEMBER HOMER, JUST A QUICK QUESTION. I WANNA MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND. IF, IF THE BUSINESS HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN A AUTO REPAIR SHOP THAT HAD ROLLING DOORS, THEN IT WOULD'VE BEEN ACCEPTABLE. IT'S BECAUSE OF THE, THE HISTORIC WOULD, WOULD, I THINK YOU COULD MAKE THE CASE, IF THAT'S A GOOD INTERPRETATION OF THE BUILDING AND IT'S HISTORIC USE. YES. OKAY. THANK YOU. SO WE, WE HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO, UH, EITHER GRANT THE APPEAL OR, OR, UH, CONTINUE WITH THE, UH, THIS HERITAGE COMMISSION'S DENIAL. MR, CAN I JUST ASK ONE MORE QUESTION? PLEASE, PLEASE. SO, UM, SO WHAT WAS THE ORIGINAL USE FOR THIS BUILDING? THERE'S A DRUGSTORE SIGN, GO SIGN ON IN THERE. I THINK THERE'S A LAUNDRY MAT. SO IT'S BEEN A NUMBER OF SERVICE AND YEAH. YES. YEAH, A NUMBER OF COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS, COMMERCIAL USES, BUT NOT A, BUT NOT FOR LIKE AUTO REPAIR. NO, MA'AM. I'M SORRY. I, WE HAVE, UH, THE APPLICANT TO SPEAK. IT'S ACTUALLY ANOTHER SPEAKER BESIDES THE APPLICANT, BUT OH, IF THE APPLICANT WANTS TO SPEAK, WE CAN ADD HIM TO THE LIST. WOULD THE APPLICANT LIKE TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL? THANK YOU. I APOLOGIZE, I, I DIDN'T REALIZE YOU WERE, YOU WERE UP THERE. OH, YEAH. UM, I BOUGHT PHOTOS, BUT YOU GUYS SEEM TO HAVE 'EM, I HAVE CURRENT PHOTOS OF, UM, WE JUST WANTED TO SHARE WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING SINCE OUTDOOR DINING. UM, UH, I'M, UH, MY NAME'S TOM MCGILL. I'M THE CO-OWNER WITH, UH, CHRIS O'NEILL. SO YOU CAN SEE IT TOOK MANY, MANY HOURS FOR US TO FIGURE OUT A NAME FOR MCNEIL'S. SO, UM, WE CAME UP WITH THAT AND, UH, ALL PARTIES WERE HAPPY. UM, AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, I HAD MANY RESTAURANTS, YOU KNOW, UM, THAT I, UH, RAN, OPERATED, AND, UM, THIS ONE DOWNTOWN BECAME, UM, OUR LITTLE GEM. WE SAW AN OPPORTUNITY TO COME DOWN HERE. WE SAW A VIBE THAT NEEDED TO BE CREATED, AND WE WANTED TO CREATE IT, AND WE WANTED TO BE PART OF IT. [01:10:01] WE, UH, DID OUR HOMEWORK, WE KNOW, AND WE TALKED TO, UH, ALL THE DIFFERENT DOWNTOWN OWNERS, AND THAT REALLY SOLD US ON DOWNTOWN PLANO WAS EVERY BUSINESS THAT'S DOWNTOWN PLANO IS OWNER OPERATED. THEY'RE HANDS ON. UM, THEY'RE THERE. THEY DON'T HIRE, YOU KNOW, OUTSIDE MANAGERS. THEY DON'T HAVE A KID, YOU KNOW, MAKING $40,000 A YEAR, YOU KNOW, RUNNING THEIR PLACE. IT'S THEM. THEY'RE ALL, THEY'RE ALL HERE. AND, UM, CHRIS AND I, THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE DO. I MEAN, WE'RE OWNERS. WE MADE A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT, REMORTGAGED HOMES. WE MOVED AROUND 401KS TO, UM, PUT THE MONEY DOWN TO, UH, MAKE A SPLASH IN DOWNTOWN PLANO. UM, WE'RE ALL ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE VIBE. AND WHEN, BEFORE WE DID THIS, WE DID OUR HOMEWORK. YOU KNOW, WE TALKED TO LOCKHARTS AND WE TALKED TO 1418, AND WE TALKED TO VICARY, AND WE TALKED TO FILLMORE, WE TALKED TO THE OWNERS. AND, UM, IT WAS VERY, IT WAS VERY ENCOURAGING, INSPIRING THAT ONE, THE OWNERS WERE THERE. WE WEREN'T TALKING TO A GM, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY'RE THERE AND WE WERE TELLING 'EM ABOUT US, AND THEY KNEW ABOUT US. AND, UM, THEY WELCOMED, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T REALLY COMPETITION. THEY WERE JUST SAYING, IT'S POWER IN NUMBERS. WE NEED TO GET DOWNTOWN GOING. AND, UM, SO WE WERE BLESSED THAT WE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE 1422. WE HAVE, UM, THE BUILDING ITSELF, WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST. WE WANTED THE HISTORY. I MEAN, WE WANTED A BUILDING THAT WAS VERY UNIQUE OLD, AND THAT WE CAN JUST REALLY DIDN'T WANNA TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM IT. WE WANTED TO KEEP IT THE WAY IT WAS, BUT BRING LIFE INTO THE BUILDING, BRING LIFE ONTO 14TH STREET THAT WAS NON-EXISTENT, AND, UH, ON K AVENUE AND TURN IT AROUND AND JUST CREATE, YOU KNOW, A GREAT VIBE AND BE, YOU KNOW, BUSINESS-LIKE, BUSINESS FRIENDLY WITH EVERYBODY. AND, UM, THE ONLY GETTING INTO OUR PERSONALITIES IS WE CAME UP WITH OUR MENU. WE CAME UP WITH WHAT WE WANTED TO DO, AND WE THOUGHT IT'D BE A GREAT, YOU KNOW, IDEA TO KIND OF, YOU KNOW, JOIN IN WITH EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IN DOWNTOWN, AND JUST BE PART OF THE CIRCUIT. AND, UH, WE WERE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF ALL THE BUSINESS OWNERS. AND WE DID ALL JUST COSMETIC INSIDE. I MEAN, THE BRICK BUILDING INSIDE. WE HAVE BLACK AND WHITE PICTURES IN THERE. WE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE WOOD TABLES. WE, WE CHANGED NOTHING AS FAR AS THAT, BUT THE OUTSIDE IT'S APPEARANCE. I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE COMING DOWN THE STREET, THEY'RE COMING WITH STROLLERS AND THIS AND THAT. AND THE PLACE NEEDED A FACELIFT. I MEAN, YOU GUYS KEPT ON TALKING EARLIER, YOU KNOW, WELL, THEY REFURBISHED, THEY CHANGED THIS, THEY CHANGED THIS, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY THE FACELIFT OF THAT FRONT WAS PROBABLY CHANGED, YOU KNOW, A DOZEN TIMES. AND WE DIDN'T WANT TO CHANGE IT, YOU KNOW, WE WANTED TO LEAVE IT. WE INHERITED THE, UH, THE AWNING. WE PUT OUR TABLES OUT THERE, WE PUT FLOWER BOXES, HANGING PLANTS. WE JUST MADE IT BEAUTIFIED. WE MADE IT VERY COMFORTABLE WHERE IT WAS AN ATTRACTION WHERE PEOPLE COME DOWN AND THEY'RE GOING LIKE, WOW, THIS IS NICE. WHEN THOSE DOORS WERE THERE, THAT WAS PART OF OUR, YOU KNOW, OUR CLEANUP. AND WE HAD A CONTRACT TO COME LOOK AT THE, YOU KNOW, THE DOORS. AND, UH, THEY WERE JUST ROTTED OUT OF THE BOTTOM. THE GLASS WAS, YOU KNOW, OUT, I DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY WERE PUTTING IN, BUT IF YOU DATED BACK, THEY WERE JUST, THEY WERE JUST SHOT. I MEAN, IT TOOK CHRIS AND I, YOU KNOW, TOGETHER JUST TRYING TO OPEN AND CLOSE 'EM. AND THEN IT JUST, THEY WAS, THEY WERE JUST SHOT. SO WE DID GO TO THE LANDLORD, WE TALKED TO HER. WE SAID, HEY, WE TOOK CARE OF EVERYTHING IN HERE. YOU GOTTA HELP US WITH THIS, YOU KNOW. UM, SHE GOES, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO? AND I SAID, WELL, WE WANT TO REPLACE THEM. SHE GOES, WELL, FIRST GET ME THREE ESTIMATES FROM CONTRACTORS SAYING THAT THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED. WE DID. AND THEY HAD NO PROBLEM SAYING THAT THESE ARE ROTTED, YOU KNOW, WE CAN, IT'S CHEAPER TO BUILD NEW DOORS THAN TO, YOU KNOW, TO PUT UP, YOU KNOW, UH, TO FIX THEM. SO WHEN WE LOOKED AT IT, AGAIN, LIKE YOU SAID, I HAD IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, ROLLUP DOORS, AND THEY WERE JUST EASY ACCESS. THEY, I MEAN, I THOUGHT THEY LOOKED GOOD. THEY LOOKED GOOD ON THE BUILDING. AND WE HAD A, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE COME IN, THEY DID A PICTURE OF IT TO SEE HOW THE BUILDING WOULD LOOK WITH A ROLLUP DOOR, A GARAGE DOOR. AND, UM, IT LOOKED, I MEAN, IT LOOKED GREAT. I MEAN, PERSONALLY, WE, WE THOUGHT DOING THIS FOR FREAKING 30 PLUS YEARS, IT TOOK NOTHING AWAY FROM THE BUILDING. WE BROUGHT THAT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE LANDLORD. SHE THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT IDEA. SHE SAYS, OKAY. SHE'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL DO IT. SO, UM, WE DID, WE GOT A LICENSE CONTRACTOR, UM, WHO WAS REFERRED TO US AND, UH, HAD A GREAT REPUTATION. AND, UM, JOE WILLIS, I BELIEVE, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW HIM FROM PLANO, [01:15:01] BUT, UM, HE CAME, TOOK OVER. AND, UM, HONESTLY, FOR OUR PART, WE THOUGHT WE WERE DONE AS FAR AS, GIVE US A QUOTE, HE DID IT. WE GOT A FEW ESTIMATES. HE CAME IN RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE, BUT HE HAD THE, UH, THE RESUME AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, DOING THE RIGHT THING. SO HE SAID, DO IT. SO NOT THROWING ANYBODY UNDER THE BUS, BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT WE WERE OBLIGATED TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. WE JUST THOUGHT WE WERE PAYING THE BILL. HERE'S YOUR CHECK. AND EVERYTHING WAS GOOD. AND WE DID, WE PAID THE BILL, AND HERE IT IS. BUT, UM, THAT SAID, THAT'S WHEN ALL THIS CAME CRUMBLING DOWN ON US. UM, BUT JUST GETTING BACK TO IT AGAIN, UH, I GET IT. WE DON'T WANT TO CHANGE NOTHING. WE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, LIKE KNOWING THAT THERE IS A FOUNDATION, YOU KNOW, THAT WATCHES THE BUILDINGS, UM, YOU KNOW, THE BIGGEST COMPLIMENT THAT WE GET IS, UM, YOU GUYS ARE IN DOWNTOWN PLANO, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WOW. I MEAN, DOWNTOWN PLANO. AND IT'S JUST, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S HUNDREDS OF LITTLE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, STRIP MALLS AND CENTERS AND THIS AND THAT. AND PEOPLE SAY, YEAH, I'M FROM PLANO. AND THEY GO WHERE? AND THEN WHEN YOU'RE GIVEN THE ADDRESS, THEY'RE LIKE, OH, WHERE IS THAT? BUT WHEN YOU SAY DOWNTOWN PLANO, I MEAN, IT'S LIKE JUST EVERYBODY KNOWS DOWNTOWN. THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE. SO, YOU KNOW, AND, UM, SO IT'S, IT'S VERY HUMBLING TO BE DOWN HERE. AND, UM, WE WANTED TO CREATE AND BE PART OF, YOU KNOW, THE SMALL TOWN VIBE. LIKE WE, YOU KNOW, GET ALONG WITH ALL THE OWNERS. WE HAVE OUR OWN LITTLE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, CHATS, AND WE WATCH OUT FOR EACH OTHER. AND, UM, WE, WE NOTICED, WE JUST HAD OUR FIRST ANNIVERSARY THIS PAST SATURDAY. AND, UM, I MEAN, IT WAS A HIT. I MEAN, IT WAS JUST, UM, I NEVER SAW SO MANY PEOPLE COME OUT JUST TO SAY LIKE, YOU KNOW, THANK YOU. I MEAN, IT WAS JUST, UH, COMING. IT WAS VERY HUMBLING TO SEE, AND WHEN I SAY THAT, I MEAN, WE DID, YOU KNOW, 177 MENUS, AND WE USUALLY TAKE 14 DAYS TO DO THAT. AND WE DID IT IN ONE SATURDAY. SO IT WAS, UM, IT WAS PEOPLE TELLING US, THANK YOU, YOU GUYS, YOU KNOW, ARE GREAT TO BE HERE. BUT WE PLAY AN IMPORTANT PART BECAUSE AS OWNERS, WHEN I HANG OUT WITH DAVID FROM 1418, AND JEFF FROM LOCKHARTS, LIKE, WE SEE THINGS EVERY DAY. IF I SEE A QUICK TRIP, YOU KNOW, COUP LAYING IN THE STREET, I PICK IT UP AS I'M WALKING ACROSS THE STREET. YOU KNOW, MANAGERS DON'T, ANYBODY ELSE DOESN'T DO THAT. WE DO THAT. CAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF PRIDE AND RESPECT FOR DOWNTOWN. WE TRY TO CAUSE CREATE THE VIBE AMONGST ALL OF US WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE HAD A COUPLE OF, YOU KNOW, THIS COUPLE WITH THEIR FRIENDS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO CAME BY AND THEY, THEY SAT AT OUR TABLE RIGHT ON THE WALKWAY AND THEY BOUGHT 'EM OUT MENUS. AND THEY WERE LIKE, WE'RE JUST GONNA HAVE DRINKS. YOU KNOW, THESE ARE PEOPLE FROM OUT OF TOWN AND THEY REALLY WANT TO TAKE TASTE TEXAS BARBECUE, SO WE'RE GONNA TAKE THEM TO LOCKHARTS. AND I SAID, WELL, LOCKHARTS DOESN'T HAVE A PATIO. IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY. GO NOW TO LOCKHARTS. GET ALL YOUR FOOD AND BRING IT HERE AND EAT, AND I'LL HAVE YOU COLD BEERS READY. AND THEY LOOKED AT ME AND THEY'RE LIKE, ARE YOU SERIOUS? I SAID, YEAH, THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHAT WE DO. WE'RE DOWNTOWN. I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE DO. AND THE GUY GOES, OKAY. I MEAN, LIKE, HOLY CRAP. BUT THAT'S HOW US AS, UH, OWNERS, WE GET ALONG 14, 18, THEY'RE COFFEE. WE ACTUALLY PUT IT ON, YOU KNOW, OUR MENU. CAUSE WE DO PRACTICE ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY. WE SAY, PLEASE COME GET YOUR FAVORITE COFFEE AT 1418 AND COME HAVE YOUR BACON AND EGGS AT MCNEIL'S. AND THEY GET A KICK OUT OF IT. AND THEY JUST THINK, THEY JUST, ARE YOU SURE YOU DON? NO, WE DON'T MIND, MAN. THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S HOW WE ROLL HERE. YOU KNOW, THAT'S HOW WE, WE GET ALONG. SO, UM, I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW, AS OWNERS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A PACK. I MEAN, WE, WE HAVE AN INVESTMENT FOR DOWNTOWN AND WE WANT TO INVEST IN DOWNTOWN, AND WE WANT TO BUILD IT UP. AND, UM, WE'RE NOT GONNA DO NOTHING AGAINST, YOU KNOW, BREAKING ANY RULES. WE WANT, YOU KNOW, THE BUILDINGS TO STAY AS IS. BUT GETTING BACK TO WHY WE ARE HERE WITH THE GARAGE DOOR OB, I MEAN, I'M, I'M, I'M GONNA BE HONEST, WE, IT JUST NEVER OCCURRED TO ME. I MEAN, WE DID OUR HOMEWORK WHERE THE FACELIFT OF THAT BUILDING WAS CHANGED MANY A TIMES. AND WE WERE LIKE, WELL, I MEAN, LIKE YOU GUYS DISCUSSED EARLIER, KELLY'S WALKED IN, I KNOW THERE WAS SUCCESSFUL, BUT THEY CHANGED THE FRONT AND THEY THREW WHEN THOSE DOORS AND THIS AND THAT, AND NOTHING WAS SAID. AND THEY GO, THEY LOOK GOOD. YOU KNOW, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THIS THINGS HAVE CHANGED. SO WE'RE LIKE, OKAY, NOW THAT WE ARE HERE AND WE'RE AT THIS POINT, WHAT IS WRONG? I MEAN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURES, UM, WHAT THE DOOR, THE GARAGE DOOR, WHAT DOES IT DO? WHAT DOES IT TAKE AWAY? I MEAN, WHAT, WHAT IS ABOUT THAT DOOR THAT JUST HURTS THE WHOLE AMBIANCE OF THIS BUILDING? YOU KNOW? AND WE FEEL NOTHING. IF ANYTHING, THE DOOR BRINGS [01:20:01] OUT THE BUILDING. IT LETS PEOPLE ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE IT. BUT WITH THAT BEING SAID, THE FLIP SIDE IS, WHEN I WAS TELLING PEOPLE OVER THE LAST SIX WEEKS WHAT I'M GOING THROUGH, THEY'RE LIKE, YOU'RE GOING THROUGH WHAT? I'M LIKE THE DOOR. AND THEY'RE LIKE, AND THEN A LOT OF 'EM, CUZ I, I GET THERE IN THE MORNING, IT'S UP. I MEAN, A DOOR IS UP 15 HOURS A DAY. SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS LEAVE. WE HAVE HEATERS OUTSIDE AND YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE, UH, AIR CURTAINS FOR THE, UH, THE SUMMERTIME TO KEEP IT. BUT I JUST FEEL THAT THE INVESTMENT WE MADE TO PUT THAT DOOR IN HAD NOTHING AGAINST DOING SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, BEHIND ANYBODY'S BACK. WE DIDN'T, WE THOUGHT WE WERE DOING RIGHT. WE THOUGHT WE WERE ENHANCING THE BUILDING. IT WAS ON OUR TAB, WE DID IT. AND THE GUEST, IF YOU'RE GONNA LOOK AT THE PEOPLE THAT DOWNTOWN, THEY, THEY LOVE IT. I MEAN, THEY ENJOY IT. I MEAN, I KNOW WE HAVE A COMMITTEE THAT, YOU KNOW, HAS TO MAKE SURE EVERY BUILDING IS, YOU KNOW, TO CODE. BUT AGAIN, WE'RE, NOW THAT WE ARE HERE DISCUSSING IT, IT WAS CHANGED SO MANY TIMES. SO THIS IS 2023. I DON'T KNOW WHEN IT WAS DONE WITH KELLY'S, YOU KNOW, THE EIGHTIES. BUT IF YOU WANNA GO THROUGH THINGS, THEN WHY CAN'T 2023 BE THE TIME WHERE, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE LOVE THE BUILDING AND WE CAN BRING IT UP AND HAVE A DOOR LIKE THIS. CUZ THIS IS THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. THIS IS WHAT WE GOT AND THIS IS WHAT'S GOING ON. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. NO, YOU, YOU'RE ON A ROLL AND I'M, I MEAN, I, I DON'T WANNA SLOW YOU DOWN, BUT I'M GONNA HAVE TO, I'M SORRY. IT, UH, DOES ANYBODY HAVE A, A QUESTION FOR, FOR THE APPLICANT? COUNCILMAN SMITH? YEAH. FIRST OF ALL, COMMENT, THANK YOU FOR HAVING A BUSINESS AND INVESTING IN DOWNTOWN PLANO. ALL OF US HAVE TRIED, AND WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO SEE OUR DOWNTOWN BECOME SUCCESSFUL. FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD TONIGHT, AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, WHAT I'VE HEARD TONIGHT FROM MICHAEL AND THE FOLKS IS I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THE ROLLUP DOOR HAS, HAS SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERED THE HYSTERICAL, HYSTERICAL HISTORICAL ASPECT OF THE PROPERTY. I MEAN, AS WE'VE HEARD, UH, THE DOORS THAT YOU TOOK OUT WERE IN BAD SHAPE AND THEY WEREN'T ORIGINAL TO, TO THE BUILDING. UH, FROM LOOKING AT THE PHOTOS THINGS, I THINK IT ALL BLENDS WELL. I THINK YOUR COLOR CHOICES WERE GOOD. I THINK THE ABILITY TO FULLY OPEN THIS UP AS YOU'VE DONE AND PROVIDE A, A REAL OPEN AIR EXPERIENCE LIKE THAT, IT IS ONLY GONNA CONTINUE TO, TO ATTRACT PEOPLE. BECAUSE THIS, THIS IS, THIS IS A, A, A GOOD CONCEPT AND, AND I WANNA SEE YOU CONTINUE TO BE, UH, SUCCESSFUL AND ATTRACT OTHER BUSINESSES THAT COME DOWN, AS YOU SAY, BECAUSE THERE'S A CAMARADERIE AMONG, YOU KNOW, ALL THE OWNERS DOWN THERE TO WORK TOGETHER TO, TO ALL TO BE SUCCESSFUL. SO I'M, I'M IN FAVOR OF IT, AND I, I WOULD, UH, NO, WELL, I'M, I'M NOT, NO, I'M NOT GONNA DO THAT YET, BUT I'M JUST SAYING I'M IN FAVOR OF, AND I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE HAS TO, UH, TO SAY ABOUT IT. WELL, LET ME HAVE ONE MORE SPEAKER, UH, IF THAT'S OKAY. WE HAVE ONE MORE SPEAKER. I'M NOT CHANGING MY MIND. THAT'S FINE. NO, I, I'M, I'M NOT, I'M JUST, SO, IF, IF YOU DON'T MIND, LET ME, LET ME HEAR FROM THE LAST SPEAKER AND THEN WE'LL, WE'LL DISCUSS AS A COUNCIL. PAM HOLLAND, I DIDN'T FORGET ABOUT YOU, MS. HOLLAND. I'M, I APOLOGIZE IF YOU WERE CONCERNED. PAM HOLLAND. I LIVE AT 1611 H AVENUE IN THE HAGGARD PARK HERITAGE DISTRICT ADJACENT TO THE HERITAGE DISTRICT, WHERE THIS IS ALL GOING ON. AND I THINK I HEARD YOU SAY SOMETHING AND YOUR OPENING REMARKS THAT BASED ON THE NUMBER OF SPEAKERS, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT GET ADJUST THE TIME. MY REMARKS WILL NOT BE LONG, BUT I HOPE YOU'LL HEAR ME OUT. UH, I DID HAVE THESE FINELY TUNED AND TIMED REMARKS THAT I HAVE HAD TO ADJUST BASED ON THIS PRESENTATION. SO HOPE YOU'LL, UH, TAKE SOME OF THAT INTO ACCOUNT. UH, SO IT'S GONNA CONTAIN SOME OF THE STUFF I WAS GONNA SAY AND THEN SOME OTHER STUFF. UM, I'VE HEARD, UM, SOME REMARKS ABOUT KIND OF SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENTS ABOUT ATLANTA. WHAT LOOKS GOOD, YOU KNOW, IS THISK, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THAT THE DOOR LOOKS BAD AND EVERYBODY'S ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION, BUT CITY STAFF IS NOT CHARGED WITH THAT. MAKING THOSE PRETTY POLICE JUDGMENTS. THEY ARE CHARGED. AND HERITAGE CONDITION, HERITAGE COMMISSION IS MANDATED TO DO WHAT MICHAEL BELL JUST TOLD YOU ABOUT. THAT IS THEIR PROCESS. THAT IS HOW WE PROTECT THE SINGULAR IRREPLACEABLE ASSET OF DOWNTOWN PLANO NATIONAL REGISTER DESIGNATED, UH, I'VE BEEN TO A NUMBER OF THESE APPEAL MEETINGS, AND OFTEN THE CONVERSATION DOES GO IN THIS DIRECTION OF, UH, WELL, [01:25:01] THEY'VE ALREADY SPENT THE MONEY AND WE DON'T WANNA CREATE A HARDSHIP, ESPECIALLY ON SMALL BUSINESS. AND SOMETIMES THE WORD EGREGIOUS GETS IN THERE. I'VE HEARD THAT USED A NUMBER OF TIMES ACTUALLY IN SEPARATE MEETINGS. LIKE, THIS ISN'T SO EGREGIOUS. YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT IS IN QUESTION HERE. UH, I'M GONNA PUSH BACK ON A FEW COUNTS. UM, THE FIRST ONE I BELIEVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT AFTER A LISTENING TO EVERYTHING THAT IS THE NOTABLE ABSENCE, DEAFENING SILENCE, THE OWNER OF THE BUILDING. I DO NOT THINK YOU COULD HAVE A BETTER REPRESENTATION OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD THAN THIS GUY THAT JUST SPOKE. THIS IS WHAT LIVING IN DOWNTOWN IS LIKE. IT'S A VERY COOPERATIVE, ENGAGED ENVIRONMENT. UH, WE HAVE A PROPERTY OWNER THAT OWNS SUBSTANTIAL FOOTAGE, UH, ON THAT PART OF KAY. SHE'S NOT THAT ENGAGED. THE FACT THAT SHE LEFT THAT GUY HANGING WHEN HE WAS GONNA MAKE THIS SUBSTANTIAL INVESTMENT AND NOT TELL HIM HE NEEDED A CA, YOU SHOULD NOT BE THE HEAVY HANDED PEOPLE HERE MAKING THIS RULING. SHOULD NOT BE HERITAGE COMMISSION, WHO'S BEING CALLED A BAD GUY. IT IS A LANDLORD WHO DOES NOT INFORM HER TENANT OF HIS OBLIGATIONS. I SAY, TAKE A DENIAL OF THIS APPEAL AND TAKE IT SMALL CLAIMS AND GET HIS MONEY BACK SO HE CAN REPLACE THAT DOOR IN A WAY THAT REINFORCES HIS CONCEPT. CLEARLY, IT'S WORKING, IT'S REALLY LIVENING UP THAT PART OF THE STREET. IT'S GREAT, BUT THERE'S MANY GOOD OPTIONS FOR THAT. ATTACHMENT SIX SHOWS SOME GREAT OPTIONS AND SOME OF THE OTHER PICTURES, WE GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS. OKAY. ALRIGHT. UH, WILL A SINGLE SET OF OVERHEAD DOORS BE THE DEATH NAIL OF DOWNTOWN? NO, IT WILL NOT, BUT AS MICHAEL BELL SAID, IT'S THE DRIP, DRIP DRIP OF NOT SUPPORTING THESE DESIGN STANDARDS THAT WILL ERODE THE SINGULAR PLACE THAT WE CALL DOWNTOWN. UM, BENDING TO SOMEBODY'S, AND I WOULD, I WAS ORIGINALLY GONNA SAY SELF-IMPOSED DISMAY, BUT IT'S, I DON'T THINK HE, I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY HIS DEAL. I THINK IT'S THE LANDLORD, UH, BENDING TO THAT DIFFICULTY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE EFFORTS AND VISION AND INTENTION OF COMMITTED STAFF AND COMMITTED PRESERVATIONISTS. THAT'S JUST WRONG. SO I HOPE SOMEHOW I, I WOULD WISH YOU WOULD DENY THE APPEAL, BUT TO GIVE HIM AMMUNITION TO GO AND GET SATISFACTION SO THEY CAN, HE CAN GET HIS DOORS FIXED IN A WAY THAT ECHOES THE RHYTHM, THE HISTORIC CHARACTER OF DOWNTOWN. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ANY MORE SPEAKERS? ALL RIGHT, GOOD. THANK YOU, MAYOR. YOU KNOW, HEARING ALL OF THIS, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S GOTTA BE, YOU KNOW, SOME TYPE OF SOLUTION THAT'S NOT JUST YES OR NO. BECAUSE I REALLY SYMPATHIZE WITH THIS OWNER WHO'S TRYING TO DO A GREAT THING IN DOWNTOWN AND HAS INCURRED SIGNIFICANT EXPENSE AND, YOU KNOW, DON'T WANT TO CREATE A HARDSHIP. AT THE SAME TIME, I, I DON'T WANT US TO DO SOMETHING ARBITRARY BECAUSE WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, UH, IN OUR PACKET, WE HAVE CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS CRITERIA, AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T REALLY SEE WHICH OF THOSE CRITERIA ENABLES US TO SAY THAT THE HERITAGE COMMISSION GOT THIS DETERMINATION WRONG. AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD JUST NULLIFY THE STANDARDS THAT WE'VE CREATED, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FAIR TO OTHER PROPERTY OWNERS TO SAY, WE WON'T DO THAT FOR YOU. YOU KNOW? AND SO, UM, SO IT REALLY FEELS LIKE A CONUNDRUM. UH, UH, MIKE, WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU WERE UP THERE, YOU TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WORKING THROUGH ATTEMPTS TO GET TO YES. DID STAFF PROPOSE ANY, ANY MIDDLE GROUNDS, UH, UH, THAT, THAT WERE NOT ACCEPTED? AND JUST WONDERING WHAT MIGHT BE OUT THERE TO EXPLORE? YES. THAT, THAT WAS OUR APPROACH. UM, THAT WAS, THAT WAS THE EXPRESSED TO THE APP. WE COULD, LET'S, LET'S TALK THROUGH THIS AND FIND A WAY TO GET SOMETHING SUITABLE. BUT AGAIN, IT WAS QUITE CLEAR THAT THEY WERE JUST GONNA PURSUE WHAT THEY HAD ALREADY INSTALLED. GOTCHA. WELL, AND, AND THANK, THANK YOU FOR THAT. DID, DID YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC IDEAS THAT YOU MENTIONED? NO WORRIES. IF THAT'S PREMATURE, IF IT WAS JUST LIKE, NO, WE'RE NOT WILLING TO CONSIDER ANYTHING. AND SO ALTERNATIVES WERE NOT PROPOSED. I DON'T THINK IT GOT THAT MARK, IF I'M WRONG, VESH, BUT WE, WE DID TALK ABOUT, UM, WE, WE DID PROVIDE THE EXAMPLES IN THE PACKET OF MM-HMM. OF SUITABLE WAYS TO DO FOLDING DOORS IN A WAY THAT IS STILL KIND OF COMPLIANT WITH THE GUIDELINES. OKAY. WELL, THA THANK YOU FOR THAT. YOU KNOW, SO DO YOU THINK, UM, I I JUST WONDER IF WE, IF WE TABLED THIS [01:30:01] FOR TWO WEEKS, IF THERE MIGHT BE A FURTHER CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE OWNER OR THE, THE LESSEE AND THE STAFF, YOU KNOW, IF, IF, IF THAT WAS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, IF THE, OKAY. YEAH, YEAH. I JUST, I JUST THINK IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THERE'S A SOLUTION FROM THE STAFF OTHER THAN CHANGING THE DOORS. WELL, WE'RE SUGGESTING TO CHANGE DOORS TO VERTICAL FOLDING DOORS, SO, OKAY. EITHER WAY, HE'S GONNA BE REQUIRED. YEAH. IF HE DENIED THE APPEAL, HE'S GONNA BE REQUIRED TO CHANGE THE DOORS. YEAH. I, I SUPPOSE THAT'S TRUE. I'D, I'D LOVE, YEAH. AND, AND I GUESS THE OTHER THING IS, IS THERE ANY, UM, I KNOW WE HAVE VARIOUS, YOU KNOW, PROGRAMS DOWNTOWN. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT WE HAVE THAT WOULD HELP WITH THE FINANCIAL HARDSHIP, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT, THAT THIS LESSEE MIGHT BE, UH, ELIGIBLE TO APPLY FOR THE, THE PRIMARY IS THE TAX EXEMPTION, WHICH ARE MEANT TO OFFSET, YEAH. MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS. THERE ARE STATE TAX EXEMPTIONS FOR REHABS AND REPAIRS. I'M NOT SURE IF THIS WOULD QUALIFY FOR THOSE, BUT IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING WORTH EXPLORING. GOTCHA. OKAY. WELL, THANK YOU FOR THAT INFORMATION. YOU KNOW, I GUESS IF, IF THIS IS A DECISION WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO MAKE TONIGHT, I MEAN, IT'S, IT'S A, IT'S A TOUGH DECISION FOR ME. I REALLY, REALLY SYMPATHIZE WITH, YOU KNOW, THIS SITUATION AND, AND, AND, YOU KNOW, FEELING LIKE IT'S JUST ABOUT A DOOR. BUT REALLY, WE, WE HAVE DESIGN STANDARDS FOR A WHOLE DISTRICT, AND I, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE RIGHT TO DO SOMETHING ARBITRARY, YOU KNOW, JUST BECAUSE, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OUR OWN AESTHETIC SENSES, UM, DON'T SEE IT A CERTAIN WAY. I, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE ADOPTED, UH, A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS CRITERIA, YOU KNOW, THE HERITAGE COMMISSION THAT WE'VE CHARGED WITH THESE DUTIES, HA HAS MADE A DETERMINATION BASED ON THOSE CRITERIA. AND SO, EVEN THOUGH I DO GREATLY SYMPATHIZE, I JUST, YOU KNOW, I, I, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO ALL OF THE DOWNTOWN PROPERTY OWNERS OR IN THE, OR IN THE INTEREST OF THE DOWNTOWN HERITAGE DISTRICT TO OVERTURN THE WELL CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW, OPINION OF THE STAFF AND THE HERITAGE COMMISSION. THAT WAS UNANIMOUS. THAT'S BEEN GRE. UM, I APPRECIATE THE COMMENTS FROM MY ESTEEMED COLLEAGUE OVER HERE, ALTHOUGH I DISAGREE WITH THEM. UM, I LOOK AT THIS FROM EVERY ASPECT THAT I COULD POSSIBLY TAKE A LOOK AT, AND I CAME UP WITH THESE THOUGHTS. UM, THE STOREFRONT HAS BEEN MODIFIED SEVERAL TIMES. THIS IS, WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING, THIS IS A VIOLATION, BUT IT WAS RADICALLY ALTERED IN 1980. IT WAS RADICALLY ALTERED AGAIN IN 2003, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ANY KIND OF ISSUE AT THAT POINT IN TIME WITH TURNING IT INTO AN OPEN AIR ENVIRONMENT FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE IN THE 1950 PHOTOGRAPH. UM, IT DIDN'T SEEM THAT THERE WAS AN ISSUE IN 1980 WHEN IT WAS MODIFIED. SO, UM, IT HAS BEEN MODIFIED MULTIPLE TIMES. UM, AND THAT WAS THE CONDITION OF THE BUILDING THAT I ASSUMED THAT THE OWNERS PURCHASED AT THE TIME. THE FRONT, AS IT HAS EVEN STATED IN THE LITERATURE, IS DIFFICULT TO SEE FROM THE STREET. SO, UM, A PASSERBY, AS IT EVEN SAYS IN THE DOCUMENT, UM, REPETITIONS ARE LESS APPARENT TO PRES, TO THE PRESENT, DUE TO THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING BEING HEAVILY OBSCURED BY AN AWING PATIO DINING IN A LARGE TREE. SO PEOPLE PASSING BY REALLY DON'T NOTICE WHETHER THIS IS A ROLLUP DOOR OR WHETHER IT'S AWNING DOORS, OR WHETHER IT'S THE ORIGINAL STOREFRONT. UM, AND IN FACT, WITH THESE, UH, PLANTER BOXES OUT IN THE FRONT, YOU ALMOST WOULD THINK THAT THOSE ARE SOME KIND OF, UM, OF BRICK MOTIF AS IT WAS PRIOR TO 1980. THE APPRAISAL DISTRICTS ACTUALLY INDICATE THIS BUILDING WAS MODIFIED TWICE IN NI IN 1917, ONCE IN 1920, ONCE IN 1940, AND AGAIN IN 1960. SO THERE'S BEEN HEAVY MODIFICATIONS ON IT. WE COULD EVEN SEE THAT IN THE PHOTOGRAPH FROM 1950 WHEN THAT LARGE VENTILATION FAN WAS ON THE BUILDING AND WAS REMOVED BECAUSE IT WAS A DRY CLEANER. UM, ALTHOUGH IT WAS NEVER CONSTRUCTED, THE COMMISSION AT ONE TIME IN HAD APPROVED THE CONSTRUCTION OF A FOUR STORY ADDITION ON THE BACK OF THIS BUILDING. UM, AND THAT WAS NOT DONE, BUT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN A SIGNIFICANT MODIFICATION, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE AN ISSUE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. UH, THE BRICK AND THE WINDOW STOREFRONT WAS MODIFIED IN 82, AN ALL GLASS FRONT WITH THE CENTER DOOR MOVED TO THE LEFT OF THE STRUCTURE. THEN IT WAS MODIFIED AGAIN IN 2003 WITH ACCORDION DOORS LEAVING AN OPEN ENVIRONMENT. AND THE, AND THE DOOR INTO THE FACILITY WAS MOVED TO THE FRONT OF THE, OR TO THE RIGHT OF THE STRUCTURE. SO THIS FRONT OF THIS BUILDING HAS BEEN ALTERED MULTIPLE TIMES, DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO IT UNTIL THIS ROLLUP DOOR WAS PUT ON. UM, THE SUBMITTED DOCUMENTS ALSO STATED THAT THE ACCORDION DOORS REPLACED AN EARLIER DOOR IN TWO LARGE DISPLAY WINDOWS THAT WERE NOT [01:35:01] ORIGINAL TO THE BUILDING. AND IT FURTHER STATES THAT BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL STOREFRONT LACKS ORIGINAL FEATURES AND MATERIALS, STAFF FINDS THAT THE APPLICANT'S INTENT TO MAINTAIN AN OPEN AIR DINING EXPERIENCE TO BE AN APPROPRIATE FUNCTION, ADAPT TO THIS BUILDING SO LONG AS THE PROPORTIONS OF THE BUILDING OPENING WERE NOT ALTERED, WHICH THEY WERE NOT AND APPROPRIATE MATERIALS WERE USED. AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE QUESTION. UM, THE DOCUMENT ALSO STATES THAT STAFF SUGGESTED THE MUSEUM OF SLIDING OR HINGE DOOR, THAT WOULD FULLY CLOSE TO COMPLEMENT THE STYLE PROPORTIONS OF THE, OF THE, UH, TYPE OF THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE. UM, AND IT FURTHER STATES THAT THE STIR FRONT SHOULD MAINTAIN THE INTEREST OF PEDESTRIANS BY PROVIDING VIEWS OF GOODS AND ACTIVITIES INSIDE. BUT THEN IT ALSO STATES THAT THE, THAT THE CONTEMPORARY AND NON, THE, THE, THE ACCORDING DOORS WERE CONTEMPORARY AND NON-TRADITIONAL, UM, AND THAT THE EARLIER FRONT WAS HEAVILY OBSCURED. THE DIFFERENCE TO ME IS VERY LITTLE. UM, AND, AND AS A SIDE NOTE, UM, I'VE USED ACCORDI, I'VE SEEN ACCORDION DOORS ON GARAGES. I'VE SEEN TIP UP DOORS ON GARAGES, UM, CALLING THIS A GARAGE DOOR, TRYING TO DIFFERENTIATE THAT FROM ACCORDION DOORS. I DON'T FIND A LOT OF DIFFERENCE THERE. AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT THE BIGGEST ISSUE WITH ACCORDION DOORS IS THAT RUNNING TRACK ON THE FLOOR, BECAUSE IT'LL FILL WITH DIRT AND IT WILL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE OR OPEN AND CLOSE. YOU'VE GOTTA KEEP IT CLEAN ALL THE TIME. UM, FINALLY, I CAN'T REALLY SEE ANY REASON TO DENY THIS AT THIS POINT IN TIME BECAUSE OF THE MODIFICATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE TO THIS BUILDING FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME. UM, I DON'T FIND THAT THIS DOOR IS ACTUALLY CHANGING THAT ENTIRE OPEN AIR, UH, STRUCTURE. UM, AND SO, ALTHOUGH I UNDERSTAND WE HAVE OUR OWN STANDARDS, UM, AND THERE ARE NEWER STANDARDS, I, I REALLY CAN'T SEE ANY REASON TO DENY THIS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. IF WE REALLY WANTED TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE ORIGINAL STOREFRONT, HIRE AN ARTIST AND HAVE THEM PAINT THE BOTTOM PANEL OF THE GLASS DOOR TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE BRICKS MAYOR FRED, TIM . SO I, I TEND TO AGREE MORE WITH MY COLLEAGUE HERE, UH, COUNCIL MEMBER GRADY, WHEN I LOOK AT THESE PHOTOS, AND YOU LOOK BACK TO THE PREVIOUS ONES, TO ME, IT LOOKS LIKE, AND MAYBE IT'S JUST MY PERCEPTION, BUT MANY OF THESE WERE METAL DOORS THAT THEY WEREN'T ALL WOOD DOORS BEFORE. SO TO SAY THAT HE NEEDS TO, THAT IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE TO HAVE METAL DOORS WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE PREVIOUSLY THERE WERE METAL DOORS, I'M CONFUSED ABOUT WHY WE'RE SAYING HE WOULD NEED TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE METAL BACK TO WOOD WHEN THERE WAS PREVIOUSLY METAL. SURE. SO AGAIN, THOSE, ALL THE ALTERATIONS THAT WERE DONE PRIOR TO 2000 WERE BEFORE THIS WAS IN A DISTRICT. THE ONES BETWEEN 2000, 2006 OR THOUSAND 16 WERE IN HER OLDER STANDARDS. BUT TO YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTION, DOWNTOWN WENT THROUGH A PERIOD OF MODERNIZATION IN THE MID-CENTURY WHERE THEY APPLIED THESE METAL DOORS. THEY APPLIED THE STUCCO ON THE BRICK IN ORDER TO LOOK MORE LIKE THE NEW STOREFRONTS GOING UP IN THE RETAIL SHOPPING CENTERS TO TRY TO STAY CURRENT AND MODERN. SO THAT WAS AN ADAPTATION AT THE TIME IN THE SIXTIES. IT DOESN'T MATCH THE PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE OF WHEN THAT BUILDING WAS ORIGINALLY BUILT, WHICH WAS THE EARLY 19 HUNDREDS, AND WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE TRYING TO GET BACK TO IN TERMS OF INTEGRITY OF THIS SITE. BUT, BUT EVEN THE ONES YOU SHOWED US OF URBAN CRUST AND EVENT 10 13, ALL OF THEIRS ARE NOT WOOD, ARE THEY? CORRECT. THEY'RE 10 30, THEY'RE METAL. RIGHT. THE, THE KEY ISSUE HERE IS NOT, IS NOT THE METAL, IT'S THE PROPORTIONS. OKAY. AND THE REPETITION. I JUST THOUGHT I SAW SOMETHING IN THE PACKET THAT SAID PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THEY WERE METAL. THEN MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD THAT IF THEY WERE, IT'S ALUMINUM, WHICH IS NOT IDEAL. I THINK IF THEY WEREN'T PAINTED, IT WOULD BE A BIGGER DEAL. BUT, UM, AGAIN, IT'S, IT'S THE, THE DESIGN STANDARDS ALLOWS SOME FLEXIBILITY FOR MODERN INTERPRETATIONS. I THINK THE FACT THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE THOSE PROPORTIONS THOUGH, IS WHAT KEEPS IT FROM BEING A REALLY, A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A MODERN INTERPRETATION. OKAY. WELL, OVERALL, I THINK TO COUNCIL MEMBER GRADY'S POINT, THERE'S BEEN SO MANY CHANGES OVER TIME. I'M STRUGGLING TO SEE HOW THESE DOORS ARE REALLY ALTERING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS. SO I'D BE IN SUPPORT OF THE, UM, I'D BE IN SUPPORT OF THE APPEAL. DEPUTY MAYER, SO I'M, I'M ASHLEY, UM, NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH MAYOR PROTE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. UM, I'M, I'M A LIAISON ON THE HERITAGE COMMISSION, AND I'VE BEEN, UM, WITH THE HERITAGE COMMISSION COMMISSION ON, UH, A CONFERENCE TRIP. I THINK IT'S IN OHIO. RIGHT. AND THE AMOUNT OF RESPECT THAT WE GET FROM CITIES ACROSS TEXAS, UM, FOR OUR HERITAGE COMMISSION AND THE WORK THAT WE DO HERE IS INCREDIBLE. UM, WE ARE LOOKED UP [01:40:01] AS A GOLD STANDARD IN WHAT, UM, HERITAGE COMMISSION SHOULD BE AND WHAT IT SHOULD, UM, ENTAIL. UM, OUR, OUR, UM, POLICIES ARE STRUCTURED. OUR, UM, PROCEDURES ARE COPIED BY OTHER CITIES IN ORDER TO PRESERVE WHAT THEY, UH, WHAT THEIR CITY CONSIDERED TO BE, UM, HERITAGE MONUMENTS, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT THEY WANT TO PRESERVE AS HISTORY. SO WHEN MY HERITAGE COMMISSION TELLS ME SEVEN TO ZERO, THAT THIS IS A DRAMATIC CHANGE FROM, UM, THE HISTORICAL PRESERVATION OF, UM, OUR DOWNTOWN PLANO. UM, YOU KNOW, I I, I REALLY DO AGREE WITH THAT. UM, I, I UNDERSTAND, UM, PROGRESS IS NECESSARY, AND I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT WE, WE WANT PROFIT AND WE WANT, UM, WE WANT ACTIVITIES IN DOWNTOWN PLANO, BUT ONE OF THE MAIN ATTRACTION ABOUT DOWNTOWN PLANO IS THE FACT THAT IT IS HISTORICAL. THIS IS WHAT PLANO WAS BUILT ON, PRESERVED FOR, AND THIS IS OUR HISTORY AND ONE LITTLE CHANGE. YEAH. IT DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE, BUT EVENTUALLY IT WILL, WHEN WE START OVERLOOKING THE PRESS, YOU KNOW, OVERLOOKING THE LITTLE MOD MODIFICATIONS WHEN WE START OVERLOOKING OUR PRESSING SURE THAT THE HERITAGE, OUR, OUR WATCHDOG, OUR HERITAGE COMMISSION WATCHDOG IS TRYING TO PRESERVE US. UH, I THINK EVENTUALLY THE, THE, THE CHARM OF DOWNTOWN PLANO WILL ERODE. SO I'M OBVIOUSLY, UM, UPHOLDING THE DENIAL. KAMAN WILLIAMS. THANK YOU. UH, QUESTION FOR YOU, MIKE. ACTUALLY, A COUPLE QUESTIONS. UM, SO WE'VE HEARD THAT NUMEROUS CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE TO THIS STOREFRONT OVER TIME, WHICH IS OF COURSE TRUE. WE SAW THE PICTURES, DID THOSE CHANGES PREDATE THE DESIGNATION OF OUR STANDARDS UNDER A HERITAGE DISTRICT THAT WE'RE REVIEWING AS, AS PART OF THIS PACKET? THEY PREDATED THE DESIGNATION OF THE DISTRICT, AND THEY PREDATED THE CURRENT DESIGN STANDARDS THAT ARE IN PLACE SINCE 2016. YES. OKAY. SO WE, ALL THOSE CHANGES OCCURRED OVER THE DECADES. UM, THEN WE APPLIED THE CURRENT HERITAGE STANDARDS TO PRESERVE THIS AND THE TARGET CHARACTER THAT WE REVIEWED BACK AT THE, UH, BEGINNING OF THE PRIOR CENTURY. AND, UH, SO IT HAS NOT GONE THROUGH CHANGES SINCE WE APPLIED THOSE CRITERIA, CORRECT? YES. UH, YES, THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. AND THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE STOREFRONTS THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE SIXTIES TO TRY TO MODERNIZE, I'M ASSUMING THOSE WOULD NOT HAVE, UH, ACHIEVED A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS. I THINK THE POINT OF PRESERVATION IS TO TRY TO UNDO THOSE THINGS DONE IN THE SIXTIES AND GET IT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER. OKAY. UM, I'M A LITTLE ON THE FENCE ABOUT THIS. NOT ENTIRELY. I AM VERY SYMPATHETIC TO THE, UH, THE RESTAURANT, UH, OWNER, UM, AND APPRECIATE THE WORK YOU'VE DONE, UH, AND THE DOWNTOWN AREA. UH, AT THE SAME TIME, I AGREE WITH COUNCILMAN RICK ELLI THAT THE STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE, UM, WERE PUT IN PLACE FOR A REASON. IF WE THINK WE NEED TO REVISIT THOSE, UM, WE CAN CERTAINLY DO SO. BUT, UM, AS WAS MENTIONED, THE, THE HISTORIC DISTRICT IS, UM, GONNA BE VERY HARD TO TURN BACK IF WE GIVE GROUND INCH BY INCH. NOW, LOOKING AT THE PICTURES, I MEAN THE, ALL THESE, ALL THESE CRITERIA ARE HERE, AND JUST LOOKING AT THE PICTURES, I DON'T THINK THAT THE, UH, THE DOOR CLOSED MATCHES THE CRITERIA OPEN. IT MIGHT, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY ROOM FOR A DESIGNATION, UH, TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN OPEN AND CLOSED, BUT I MEAN, THESE PICTURES THAT WE WERE GIVEN, UM, I MEAN, THE DOOR'S INVISIBLE PRETTY MUCH. UM, WE HEARD THAT THE DOOR IS OPEN 15 HOURS OUT OF THE DAY. I DON'T KNOW, I HAVEN'T VISITED THE ESTABLISHMENT. UM, IS THAT YEAR ROUND, UM, DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE? I, I'D LIKE YOUR OPINION ON THAT. YEAH. I THINK IDEALLY THE DESIGN WHEN CLOSED WOULD REPLICATE THE STOREFRONT, I THINK WITH THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT TO ADAPTIVELY REUSE THIS BUILDING FOR RESTAURANT, IT'S ACCEPTABLE TO ROLL UP DURING THE DAYTIME. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS DOORWAY AND THE OTHER EXAMPLES PROVIDED IN DOWNTOWN IS IN THOSE EXAMPLES, THE DOOR WAS CENTERED ON THE, IN THE OPENING, THE DOORS OPEN ON EITHER SIDE. IT STILL, EVEN WHEN THOSE WERE OPEN, THEY REPLICATED THE STOREFRONT. IN THIS CASE, IT JUST, IT JUST DOESN'T. AND SO THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T MEET THE STANDARDS. OKAY. THEN I, I THINK I'M AT THE POSITION WHERE THE, UH, THE [01:45:01] LANDLORD ABSOLUTELY HAD A DUTY TO INFORM THE APPLICANT THAT, UH, THIS PROCESS WAS REQUIRED. YES. UM, IT'S A HARD DECISION BECAUSE I AM SYMPATHETIC, BUT WE'RE, WE'RE NOT GONNA LOSE OUR DOWNTOWN, UH, CHARACTER ALL AT ONCE. IT'S NOT GOING TO BECOME A GEOGRAPHICAL VERSION OF MODERN ART OVERNIGHT. IT'S GONNA HAPPEN ONE INCREMENTAL DECISION AT A TIME OVER MANY YEARS, UH, PERHAPS MANY DECADES AS IT DID, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE TRYING TO RECLAIM IT NOW. UM, SO I THINK I WOULD HAVE TO, UH, RELUCTANTLY VOTE IN FAVOR OF UPHOLDING THE, UH, HERITAGE COMMISSION'S DENIAL COUNCIL MEMBER HALLMAN. OH, I'VE GOT LOTS OF THOUGHTS. I I'M A FORMER RESTAURANT OWNER IN DOWNTOWN PLANO, SO I AM VERY SYMPATHETIC AS TO WHAT IT'S LIKE TO OWN A BUSINESS IN DOWNTOWN PLANO, A HISTORIC BUILDING, UM, AND TO TRY TO RUN A, A A SEVEN DAY A WEEK BUSINESS AND WEAR SO MANY DIFFERENT HATS. AND, UM, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE REASON AS, AS THE, THE APPLICANT STATED THAT HE CHOSE THAT LOCATION WAS BECAUSE OF THE APPEAL OF DOWNTOWN. AND I HAVE NOTHING BUT RESPECT FOR OUR, OUR HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION AND FOR OUR STAFF. THEY DO AN AMAZING JOB. UM, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A LOT OF THE CHARM TO DOWNTOWN AND, UH, TO COUNCIL MEMBER TWO'S, UH, POINT AND, UH, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS, THAT WE SHOULD TRUST OUR, OUR COMMISSION. I MEAN, THERE ARE TIMES WHEN OUR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MAKES DECISIONS, AND THEY COME TO US TO MAKE THAT, THAT FINAL DECISION. IT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE SAME. AND I THINK THAT, THAT THEY'RE DOING THEIR JOB AND DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB, BOTH THE STAFF AND THE COMMISSION, AND I RESPECT THEM FOR THAT. BUT ULTIMATELY, WE'RE HERE TO, UM, TO MAKE THE FINAL DECISION. AND I THINK, UM, A FEW DIFFERENT THINGS. I APPRECIATED, UH, PAM HOLLAND COMING UP AND SPEAKING ABOUT, UM, THAT HOLDING LANDLORDS ACCOUNTABLE, TAKING A LANDLORD TO SMALL CLAIMS COURT, THAT'S ALL FINE AND, AND GREAT IN THEORY, BUT THAT TAKES MONEY. THAT TAKES TIME, THAT TAKES YOU AWAY FROM RUNNING YOUR BUSINESS. AND I MEAN, IT'S A DOLLAR AND CENT KIND OF BUSINESS WHEN YOU RUN A RESTAURANT. I MEAN, IT IS GRUELING. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH. I THINK EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. I'VE, I'VE, ANYTIME I TELL ANYONE I OWNED A RESTAURANT, THEY'RE LIKE, OH, WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? AND I COULD NEVER DO THAT. IT IS SUCH HARD WORK. AND SO, UM, I DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S FAIR TO PENALIZE THE, THE APPLICANT WHO'S ALREADY INVESTED $9,000 JUST IN HARD EXPENSES. THAT'S NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE TIME AND THE ENERGY BEING HERE TONIGHT. I'M SURE HE IS. SPENT NUMEROUS HOURS, UM, WITH EACH OF YOU TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE NOT FINDING ALTERNATE SOLUTIONS AFTER INVESTING THAT MONEY, MAYBE WAS HOPING TO AVOID SPENDING ANY MORE TIME, ENERGY, FINANCES ON IT. UM, AS WAS ALREADY BROUGHT UP, UM, COUNCIL MEMBER GRADY, ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE, YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE BECAUSE OF THE AWNING AND THE TREE AND THE, THE EVERYTHING IN THE FRONT. IT'S REALLY HARD TO, TO SEE ALL OF THAT. I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO NOT PUT A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN A POSITION LIKE THIS. SO WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHAT WE REQUIRE OF A LANDOWNER, OR WHAT IS THE APPLICATION PROCESS. UM, IT'S TRUE, USUALLY IT'S NOT UNTIL SOMEONE PUTS IN A SIGN PERMIT THAT IT, IT'S COME TO THE ATTENTION OF STAFF THAT, OH, WHAT ELSE ARE YOU DOING HERE? AND HOW CAN WE HELP YOU, UM, UH, MAKE SURE THAT YOU, YOU KNOW, ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE STANDARDS DOWN HERE. AND THE STAFF DOES AN AMAZING JOB WITH THAT. BUT WE'VE GOTTEN BEYOND THAT AT THIS POINT, AND I DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S FAIR TO, TO PENALIZE THE, UH, THE APPLICANT. UM, LET ME SEE WHAT OTHER, UH, I FEEL ONE THING THAT THE CITY HAS ALREADY REMEDIED, UM, MICHELLE HAWKINS BEING PLACED IN THAT, UH, DOWNTOWN MANAGER ROLE DOES GIVE US ONE ADDITIONAL LIAISON TO HOPEFULLY HELP PREVENT THINGS LIKE THAT FROM HAPPENING IN THE FUTURE. I HAVE A LETTER FROM A FORMER, UH, NOT A FORMER, EXCUSE ME, A A FELLOW MERCHANT IN DOWNTOWN PLANO, THE OWNER OF THE 1418 COFFEE SHOP. IN THE INTEREST OF TIME, I'M NOT GOING TO READ ALL OF IT. IT REALLY SPOKE TO JUST THE CAMARADERIE DOWNTOWN, THE VIBE DOWNTOWN, EVERYONE WANTING TO WORK TOGETHER, UM, AND, AND BEING SUPPORTIVE OF, OF THE APPLICANT AND, AND US, UM, MAKING THE DECISION TO, TO APPROVE, UH, THIS APPEAL. SO, UM, I, I THINK MAYBE WE SHOULD CONSIDER LOOKING, UH, INTO, TO WHAT WE CAN DO TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T FIND SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS IN THE FUTURE. UM, YOU KNOW, I'M VERY MUCH AN ADVOCATE FOR, FOR SMALL BUSINESSES IN PLANO, AND I CANNOT IN GOOD FAITH AFTER THIS MONEY'S BEEN SPENT. HE IS A, UH, A GREAT ADDITION TO DOWNTOWN PLANO. UH, MY BUSINESS WAS DOWN THERE WHEN THE PREVIOUS APPLIC OR PREVIOUS BUSINESS WENT [01:50:01] OUT OF BUSINESS, AND THAT SPACE STAYED EMPTY FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS. AND IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT, UM, WELL, AND I THINK THE APPLICANT EVEN SAID THAT THERE WERE OTHER BUSINESSES. THERE'S ACTUALLY THE LEASING AGENTS AT THE APARTMENTS NEARBY THAT ONCE THEY MOVED IN AND, AND STARTED GENERATING TRAFFIC DOWN THERE, THEY SAID, THANK YOU. IT MAKES IT SO MUCH EASIER FOR US TO RENT THESE APARTMENTS OUT WHEN WE HAVE GOT LIVELY BUSINESSES DOWN HERE, RATHER THAN EMPTY STOREFRONTS. SO I FEEL LIKE ALL OF HIS INTENTIONS OF THE GOOD, HE'S DONE NOTHING BUT CONTRIBUTE TO TRAFFIC IN DOWNTOWN, TO OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESSES IN DOWNTOWN, AND WE SHOULD NOT, UM, YOU KNOW, PENALIZE HIM FOR HIM NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT PROCESS. SO I 100%, UH, WILL SUPPORT, UM, THAT WE, I, I DON'T KNOW, IS IT APPROVE THE APPEAL? IS THAT THE CORRECT WAY? AND, AND I, I DO WANT TO REITERATE MY RESPECT FOR THE COMMISSION, FOR THE STAFF. I KNOW YOU'RE DOING YOUR JOB AND YOU'RE DOING AN EXCELLENT, UM, JOB. AND, UM, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY WE CAN DO SOMETHING TO, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT A POSITION LIKE THIS IN THE FUTURE. BUT, UM, I WILL SUPPORT THIS APPEAL. COUNCILMAN SMITH, UH, GREAT POINTS I THINK EVERYBODY HAS, HAS, HAS MADE, AND, AND I RESPECT THE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION. I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES US A GREAT GOVERNING BODY IS CUZ WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION. UH, LIKE DEPUTY MAYOR, I'M ALSO THE LIAISON TO THE HERITAGE COMMISSION AND THE THINGS SHE SAID ARE RIGHT ON. I, I MEAN, THE POINT OF THE HERITAGE IS TO MAINTAIN THE HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE AND TO KEEP THAT LOOK AND FEEL. THAT DID GET US THE, THE HISTORICAL DESIGNATIONS. BUT AS COUNCILMAN GRADY SO ELOQUENT, POINTED OUT, THERE'S BEEN CHANGES AND CHANGES AND CHANGES AND CHANGES TO THIS BUILDING OVER TIME THAT WHERE THIS BUILDING COULD NOT HAVE HAD THOSE CHANGES AND HAD ALL THE ORIGINAL BASICALLY LOOK AND FEEL, MAYBE SOME DIFFERENT MATERIALS HERE AND THERE. I WOULDN'T BE IN FAVOR OF IT EITHER, BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE HERE. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK TO, TO THE FUTURE AND THE, THE, I GUESS THE SUCCESS, THE CONTINUOUS SUCCESS FOR OUR DOWNTOWN AREA. AND WE HAVE TO USE COMMON SENSE SOMETIMES. SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, THINGS MAY, YOU CAN READ SOMETHING ONE WAY, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM A COMMON SENSE STANDPOINT, HOW DOES IT FIT? WHAT'S THE BEST SOLUTION FOR NOW? AND I THINK BY FAR THE BEST SOLUTION FOR NOW IS TO GRANT THIS, UH, THIS PETITION AND WOW, THIS BUSINESSMAN TO CONTINUE. BECAUSE AS A FELLOW BUSINESSMAN AND MYSELF WHO LEASES A BUILDING, OKAY, SURE, HE MIGHT BE SUCCESSFUL SUING HIS LANDLORD, BUT ULTIMATELY HE'S STILL PAYING FOR IT. HE, THERE, THERE'S NO FREE RIDE WHEN YOU LEASE, THE OWNERS ARE GONNA PAY MONEY OUT, THE OWNERS ARE GONNA RAISE THE RENT OR RAISE YOUR COMMON AREA, YOU KNOW, MAINTENANCE FEES, SO YOU'RE STILL GONNA PAY FOR IT. SO, UH, SO JUST KEEP THAT IN MIND. IF, IF WE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS COMING UP AGAIN, THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN GO BACK AGAINST, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT OWNER, IT'S STILL GONNA ULTIMATELY COME, YOU KNOW, COME BACK TO YOU. SO, SO I'M STILL, I'M IN FAVOR. WELL, UH, I'LL BE REAL BRIEF BECAUSE EVERY, EVERYONE HAS SAID, MS. HOLLAND, YOU'RE CORRECT. THE ONUS IS ON THE LANDLORD. AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE, WE DON'T, WE DON'T HAVE CONTROL TO, TO, TO MAKE THEM DO ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT. AND IT CERTAINLY ISN'T, ISN'T SOMETHING THAT HE SHOULD BE PENALIZED FOR. SO AS HARD AS, UH, I THINK WE ALL ARE VERY, YOU KNOW, CONFLICTED HERE, BUT, UH, I, I, UH, I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO PENALIZE SOMEBODY FOR, FOR A MISTAKE SOMEBODY ELSE MADE. SO, DO I HEAR A MOTION? MAKE A MOTION THAT WE, UH, GRANT THE APPEAL. SECOND. GO AHEAD. OKAY. SO I HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND TO GRANT THE APPEAL. SO THAT'D BE, UH, IN FAVOR OF, OF, OF THE REAU TOUR. EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND, PLEASE VOTE. MOTION PASSES FIVE TO THREE. THERE BEING NO FURTHER BUSINESS MEETINGS ADJOURNED. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.